Rumors Confirmed When Sources Were Given
This is the new part II to the famous thread of When Rumors Happen And No Sources Are Given . Because of the length of the old thread with the large amount of comments, the fact that I am about to max out how many comment posts per thread, and the fact that some people with dial-up 56K modems are complaining that it is taking too long to download, I have closed the original thread from being able to post and decided to pick the conversation here. If you need to reference the old thread use the link within the paragraph to access the old thread.
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We have confirmed that Carman did get married via this source:
Go to:
http://www.co.clark.nv.us/RECORDER/Mar_srch.htm
which is the Clark County, Nevada “Marriage Inquiry System”. Click on the ’name’ button at the bottom of the page. For the last name, type “LICCIARDELLO”. For the first name, type “CARMAN†and hit the Submit button. You will get the results of
Marriage Name Search Results
Click on certificate number link to order marriage certificate(s) by credit card.
Search Name
Spouse Name
Marriage Date
Certificate Number
LICCIARDELLO CARMAN DOMENIC
VILLAMIL ROSE GRISSETT
01/08/2004
D 636399
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We have also confirmed that Carman has filed an annulment from the marriage listed above via:
http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us/
Just click on “Family Law Child Support†and then type in case# 04-D-318275
to see the active status of the case. At the left hand side, click on the “Case Activity” link for the order of events.
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Continue the conversations here.
Tags: Addicted to Jesus, Carman, Carman Divorce, carman licciardello, carman licciardello married, Carman: The Champion, Lazarus, Mission 3:16, R.I.O.T., ROSE GRISSETT VILLAMIL, Sunday's on the way
To Millie (#570)
So what I hear you saying is that you have personally gone to Carman and rebuked him. First, one on one and he refused to listen. Then you went back to him with at least one witness and he again refused to listen. So now you feel you have the right to publicly rebuke him.
Am I understanding you correctly?
Have you gone to his spiritual authority? I mean if you want us to publicly rebuke this man, then you must make a public declaration. At least make a post, directed to the body of Christ, and state specifically what sins he has committed and when. What actions you have taken to resolve the issues. And what actions we as the body are now supposed to take, specifically.
I will not rebuke a man without this kind of declaration (oh, and some hard core proof would be good too) because I’m not going down just because you’ve made something up and I believed it without doing any research or getting any proof.
I have not felt led of the Holy Spirit to rebuke him public or otherwise. I have felt that all of this “rebuking” has been done very badly.
I will agree that Carman’s actions do raise questions, however, rebuking him publicly at this point (without all the facts) is the same as linching him. Regardless of how I feel about the man, I will not join a public rebuke without proof.
Michele (#569)
So in your church there is a pastor/elder/etc. and the church body. There is no other leadership of any kind? That is kind of strange to me. I’ve only seen that in really small churches, in really small towns.
I agree that leadership can be a roadblock if those who have been appointed are not Godly men who truly seek to do God’s Will.
In most churches where there is a leadership group, the leaders are chosen based on the standards laid out in the New Testament (Titus, 1 & 2 Tim, etc.) and then voted on by the church. And there are different types of leaders with different levels of responsibility. I think that the reason that the leadership is necessary is because the majority of the body of Christ is made up of sheep. Sheep like to follow, not to lead. And sheep are not always the most discerning either. The Pastor is the shepherd, but when the flock is large he needs other shepherds to help him.
And for those who are new to the body, the leadership is a good place for them to go when they need guidance and maybe access to the pastor is not possible. (Especially in really big churches.)
I’ve been blessed to have been apart of many different churches in my life. Different denominations and non-denominations. What I’ve found is that there are Godly pastors and people everywhere. Just as there are unGodly pastors and people everywhere. And no one church has the perfect way to do things. There are things right and wrong with every group.
What I’ve learned is that I need to listen to the Holy Spirit and act accordingly. I need to have respect for those in authority, but I also need to listen to what God tells me.
In one church, they believed that you are only filled with the Holy Spirit if you speak in tongues. According to scripture that is one of many pieces of evidence that shows that the Holy Spirit is in you. I respected their view (because they had scripture to back it up to their satisfaction), but I did not agree with them, and they knew it and they knew why (because I too had good scriptural reasons to back up my view). Anyway, it kept me from being able to be a part of their leadership, but that wasn’t why God had me there. He gave me other things to do there and I did them and then He moved me out of town. I loved the pastor at that church. He and I really got along great and I really learned a lot from him.
I hope this helps, and I appreciate you sharing with us. I love to learn new things and I liked to be challenged to prove myself. Often in meeting the challenge God will teach me new things and it ends up being a great benefit for me.
Thanks!
To Neil (#572)
I agree that there are ministries out there where the board is as bad as the head of the ministry.
However, there are many more out there who are truly seeking to do God’s Will and the board is made up of Godly people also seeking to do God’s Will. And you can’t just assume that because they are high profile that they are “bad”.
In the case of the “bad” ministries. These will be exposed (we’ve all seen it happen. I have seen it happen on a local level as well as a national one). If not now, certainly on the Day of Judgment. We have to be careful not to make judgments. We have to decide what God wants us to do and then do that. What He wants you to do is often different from what He wants others to do.
I have to really watch what I say about ministries and churches, because I have a tendency to allow my past experience to color my view. And yet I know people who have been spiritually blessed through those same venues. God can work through anything and He picks what’s right for you. When He wants your eyes open, He’ll open them. We have to leave it up to God.
The ones who don’t get right with God and seem to escape judgment in this world should be really scared. Those are the ones who’ll be saying “but, Lord look what I did in Your Name.†And Jesus will be replying “I don’t know you.†At least those who receive their judgment here have a chance to get right with God and avoid hearing Jesus say “I don’t know you.â€
Thanks for your input.
A lot of people have accused Carman of deliberately trying to lead women on in order to get money to keep his faltering ministry going. They have charged that Carman’s sole purpose has always been to take ungodly advantange of these women.
Recently I wrote how pictures of Carman as well as other Christian artists are used to encourage our young people and to remind them that they are not alone in living for Jesus Christ. Since then it occurred to me that when I think about it, all of Carman’s music has been geared toward young people, not to women. For those who don’t know the difference should listen to Michael Bolton or Sting… guys usually don’t listen to them because they are geared toward female audiences.
If Carman has done anything aimed toward women it was more for their daughters. Remember Carman had Zoe Girl tour with him, not just because of their music, but because of their strong testimony that encouraged girls to take a stand for Jesus Christ with their sexuallity. This does not sound like a man who is out to lure women into sin or lust. But this is how many of you want us to view Carman now.
Carman’s music and ministry has always been about winning souls and encouraging young people and their parents to live for Jesus Christ. All some of you can take credit for is trying to stop him and to turn others away from ever being reached by him. As one person said, someone else can take Carman’s place. You are really that callous a person to hurt one person so viciously because you think they can be replaced. And you want to believe you are capable of valuing people. Where is the belief that each of us are so valuable and beloved by Jesus Christ that He would have died to save just one of us. Unless you are a man who has given so much, then…. You speak of Carman lying, what of your own lies. Who is going to hold you accountable? Who is going to ask you to give up your hard earned money to do what ever you can to win souls and then say sorry it isn’t good enough because we’ve found that you charge money for pictures that we are absolutely certain is causing some women to find you attractive…. And this is the reasoning behind Michele “Just a sinner saved by grace.” Get a clue Michele, don’t use the grace of Jesus to make you ungracious. But that is what so many of you have done.
I have witnessed and been touched by Carman’s ministry so much, but to read what some of you write, I sometimes get discouraged about him and then God reminds me of what I have seen him do and what I have heard him say and I can ignore the false accusations. But, what about those who will read this and walk away not just from Carman but from anyone else who tries to tell them through songs or teaching about Jesus Christ?
Someone else will do it?
It took over twenty years for me to find someone like Carman. And I had witnessed and heard many preachers and Christians, but they all made me want to run from them because they seemed so full of hate… much like so many of you.
Carman was different. There was a genuine joy about him as he sang about Jesus. It was the first time I ever witnessed a “man of God” who seemed to actually love Jesus Christ. I was broken and found all at the same time. I never had to run away from another man of God. This man of God loved others. This one loved and served Jesus Christ. I had never actually witnessed anyone who “served” Jesus. I had seen pastors, but they only seemed to serve themselves and they all seemed so weak. But I saw Carman take a punch in the stomach when doing his movie and it didn’t faze him, he still laughed and showed genuine friendship with the other guy who may not have been saved. Say what you will, but there is something about Carman that is different than all the other “men of God”.
No one here could ever replace him, that is for sure.
This is also to Neil and all you others who think it is wrong for friends of “men of God” to do the rebuking, because you are all so afraid they won’t punish them viciously enough and make them feel the wrath of “God”. People like you would also say that Samuel wasn’t fit to rebuke David, because Samuel was the one to also anoint David and to advise him. Sure we “know” God told Samuel to do it, but none of you will believe that God can speak to these men who are friends and advisers to Carman. In spite of all they do right for the body of Christ, you still want to lean into your own understanding of what you want done. It is never God’s will be done that you want but your own vicious will.
In the Bible, men like Neil never worked for God but always against Him. Do you really want to listen to him. Men who loved God and were used of God sinned. There sin did not in the least make them unworthy before God and when God chose to deal with them He did. Have enough faith to believe that God will do it His Way and pray that He will never allow men like Neil to do it their way.
To all here (both sides of opinion):
We are not going to tolerate posts that deem people you disagree with as “agents of Satan”, ‘Judas’, Achan, or any other name or spiritual scare tactics such as The Curse of Ham, Touch Not Mine Anointed, Saul In The Spirit, “Disagreeing with me IS disagreeing with God”, etc.
We are not going to tolerate posts that speak out ‘holy hexes’, breakup of families, poverty, loss of employment, death by brutal and tortureous methods, homelessness, or ‘prophetic death threats’ against people you disagree with.
We are not going to tolerate posts that deem people who disagree with you as ‘reprobate’, ‘hellbound’, lost their salvation, beyond being ’saved’, hated by Jesus, ‘never saved or unsaved’, etc.
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I have deleted numerous comments today in reference to this post that have resorted to such tactics in an attempt to get people to see things their way. One of the posts I had to delete was written by a poster that has gone way too far. This particular poster specifically claimed that God told them that God was going to strike dead a specific poster (yes, they named the poster that they claimed God is going to kill) on this board with a long, slow, and painful death consisting of brutality and tortue and send their soul to hell because they disagreed with that person.
To the poster who sent the comment, you are not posting here anymore. PERIOD!!! . A copy of the post (with full traceability enclosed) has been sent to the abuse department of your ISP for action on their part.
To the specific poster who was the subject of the threat, a copy of the post (with full traceability enclosed) has been sent to you to do what ever you want to do with it.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!
Admin. My question to you, at this point, and in the case of what you state in #6, don’t you think enough is enough of this post, period. When you are receiving those types of e-mails or postings, isn’t it obvious to you that you are attracting the wrong kind of people and isn’t it apparent what you are promoting. Whether you choose to post them, visibly, or not, they are still being written. Keep in mind that although the power of God is greater, there is still a very real devil alive and at work in the hearts and lives of those that choose to serve him. While those types of posts would anger me, as they do you, they also would cause me to take a good look at what is being perpetrated by this blog. It’s time the entire thing comes to an end. I think we’ve all witnessed enough and fully comprehend what it is you’re really trying to do. Do yourself a favor and drop this thing. You’ve caused enough damage already. I think others would agree
To admin,
Thank you for editing. I’m sure none us needed to hear to awful things. I keep praying that the Holy Spirit will be at work here. (and I’m sure I’m not the only one praying that way.)
I’m just sorry you have to read it all.
Thank You.
Michele,
I’m sorry I forgot to give you the information you asked for. I believe that Carman’s e-mail is carman@carman.org. But you could also enter it as a “Question of the day.” You know he’ll read it becuase he reads those so that he can answer them.
(Side bar to everyone else reading this. I’m not suggesting that people bombared Carman with “rebuke” e-mails in his “Question of the day.”)
Thanks for talking with me.
*******
To Dawn:
Your comments are great. Thank you for standing up.
I’d like to say that no matter what Carman may or may not have done, I can only go by what my experience with Carman has been.
I have been blessed countless times by his ministry. God has used Carman to minister to me during some of my darkest hours. It is not fair to say that Carman’s ministry only consists of lovesick women. Along with my family, I have sat in the front rows of his concerts and been an eye witness to hundreds of teenagers walking down to the altar for the very first time. I will never forget the looks on some of their faces. Someone had offered them HOPE. That someone was Carman. Carman – not ashamed to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I personally witnessed literally thousands of everyday, normal families at his concerts. Moms, dads, kids, teens. Church members were there with their pastors. Honestly, if there were lovesick females, they were few and far between. Not to say that that is not a certain dynamic of his fan-base – but it is not the majority of his supporters.
Now whatever he has going on in his life, be it right or wrong, is not my business – and quite frankly, I just don’t think it’s any of yours either. His private life is between him and God. And God will whisper to him if He needs to, or thunder out His Name to Carman, but GOD will not leave him. GOD will get his attention, GOD will speak to his heart. Not you and not me. At least not through us in this context.
I pray for God’s grace and spirit to be among you all. Remember He is slow to anger, long-suffering, His mercies abound forever…. That applies to Carman. That applies to you and to me. Please – be kind and merciful when dealing with Carman. Don’t hold on to offenses. The guy is only human.
Bottom line: even if he is guilty as charged – don’t cast the stone. Say something edifying for him. Pull him out of it. Take the high road. Forgive him…….
Dawn,
Please don’t misunderstand some of us . . . you stated: “Who is going to ask you to give up your hard earned money to do what ever you can to win souls and then say sorry it isn’t good enough because we’ve found that you charge money for pictures that we are absolutely certain is causing some women to find you attractive…. And this is the reasoning behind Michele “Just a sinner saved by grace.†Get a clue Michele, don’t use the grace of Jesus to make you ungracious. But that is what so many of you have done.”
I don’t think that anyone here is stating that “we believe” Carman’s intentions are not good, etc. However, we cannot just “ignore” things that are “worldly” …. we are called to be set apart from the world. We also are called to “spread the gospel to the world”. When we do this, we have to be careful to not become as those who are in the world. That is my stance behind this issue (and I believe those that share my view).
I have heard many people make statements that Carman seemed to have good intentions during the earlier part of his ministry and somehow lost his way. I have heard a number of people make these comments based on strong convictions in their hearts. I think it would be inappropriate for us not to share these concerns with each other and with Carman. Perhaps, God has placed these concerns on our hearts so they can be shared.
Personally, I have a lot of respect for the Carman I say 10 years ago or so. But something has seemed to change and I am not going to “fib” and tell anyone that I am comfortable with what I have seen the last 8 years.
Concerning your comment: “Get a clue Michele, don’t use the grace of Jesus to make you ungracious.” I hope that I am not doing this. I hope that I am GRACIOUS enough to CARE enough to attempt to bring some of these things to the ministries attention.
But I respect your point of view. I know my heart and God knows it (and for that matter, God know’s your heart and He knows Carman’s heart) . . . and that is good enought for me.
And finally, don’t assume you know what I have or haven’t given up to win souls for Christ. You might be very, very surprised. And yes, I know what it feels like to be told that it wasn’t good enough and when I got away from the situation and could look at it objectively, these individual’s were right. My focus was not on Jesus to the degree that it should have been and I am thankful that they CARED enough to bring this to my attention.
Dawn, I pray God’s blessing on you and I am grateful that you have been blessed by Carman’s Ministry.
#1: What you heard me say (or read) was: “All the proper steps in confronting a fellow believer have been taken.” I don’t see the word “rebuke” in there, do you???
I’m sure you would love all the details, however, that’s not going to happen.
I believe that “men of God” have a responsibility to do everything in their power to make their marriages work…and that takes a little longer than 4 months. I also believe that “men of God”, along with the rewards of leadership, also have a responsibility to the body of Christ that they serve, to be honest and set Godly examples. Especially in the times that we live, our children need to know their heros believe that marriage is sacred and blessed. Is that asking too much??
Now, you have your opinion, and I respect that. However, mine is different from yours.
So be it.
Dawn,
Perhaps I am comparing Carman’s page to another page like that of Steve Camp’s: http://a1m.org/
I can understand that God might perhaps use a different approach with both of these artists’ pages; however, all I was simply trying to state is I agree that I would like to see move of Jesus on Carman’s website and that what probably was probably well intentioned my have backfired and crossed the line. I am just stating my opinion and it’s just an opinion. Some people will agree with you and some people will agree with me.
I do understand about how you feel about Carman. At one time I would have thought that this man was an extremely strong man and would stand up for the truth regardless of the cost. From my perspective and from what I have witnessed recently, I wonder where that man has gone. I would have thought that he would have been the first to stand up and “strongly” face whatever he had to face.
Having said that, again maybe I am mistaken. Perhaps the strongest thing to do is to remain quiet; however, I still have to believe that Carman owes his partners a public explanation regarding the issue regardless of how little of the details he can share.
To Carman, I am sorry I am using this board to communicate these things too you. I apologize from the bottom of my heart if I have falsely accused you, participated in rumors, and inappropriately publicly rebuked you. However, I do not feel that I have any real opportunity to communicate these things via Carman Ministries to you and really do not know any other way to communicate these things to you.
God Bless,
I would like for those former Carman chat members to notice how admin. has dealt with people who have gotten out of line. Not to criticize him, but to point out that this sometimes is the only alternative. I would also like to mention that Carman Ministry has posted guidelines for what is acceptable chatting practices for its members and for its visitors and they warn people that if these guidelines are not followed then they will have to ban that person from perticipating. The guidelines state that the chat-room is to be an enjoyable experience for everyone, not a place to argue or to sort out differences of individual opinions (paraphrased). This is not uncommon, I have noticed that Christianity.com’s forum also has a long list of do’s and don’ts for its forums. So Carman is not being an underhanded or deceitful man when he is forced to carry out having people banned. As we all can see from the admin. post, people do get out of hand and the people hosting it do have the right when to say enough is enough.
Sincerely and best wishes to all…
Folks,
I suggest we follow Carole Anne’s advise.
OK….For anyone that wants to try to go through all the steps (even if you felt that you have effectively been shut down from the moment you opened your mouth when you tried this before) here is the phone number to Carman Ministries: Phone: (615) 771-2711.
I do not find an email address posted on the website accept one related to booking concerts so if anyone has a good email address to use, I request that you post it here.
Also, if anyone has a list of those in Carman’s authority, please post it here.
God Bless,
Admin,I’m glad to see that you have taken some action against the person you mentioned and have ejected them as sometimes Carman Ministries has ejected people from it’s chatroom, because of behavior that is disruptive to the group as a whole. As Dawn said there are guidelines there, but at the same time, sometimes guidelines aren’t enough. The type of person you are describing may not stop with postings and e-mails. I don’t know who the post was directed at, but as Anon2 said if this is the type of people you are beginning to attract, maybe you need to rethink what you have started here.
I’d also like to comment on the fact that some are giving out e-mail addresses and phone numbers regarding the ministry, which tells me many of you aren’t even contributers to the ministry , nor have ever been, so even if there needed to be some rebuking taking place ( and I’m not saying there is), then it should come from those who are a part of the ministry financially or otherwise. Not from someone who just happens by and believes he’s wrong.
Dawn,
I don’t think you will believe me but I think the last thing most of us want to do is rebuke because as you said we “think it is wrong for friends of “men of God†to do the rebuking, because you are all so afraid they won’t punish them viciously enough and make them feel the wrath of “God”. I can’t speak for everyone else but the last thing I want Carman to receive is punishment. I am just afraid that his current actions may cause more punishment than he might have received otherwise . . . and no . . . I don’t want him to suffer this if he doesn’t have to.
I agree with Carole, most of this rebuking has been done badly. I know when I have been rebuked in the past it has not been done appropriately and I suspect that we have all just witnessed a lot of bad examples concerning how to do this. I have apologized for this and that is all that I can do. It does, however, not change my opinions about how I feel about the issues.
And I certainly agree with you, Dawn, that if someone is threating others, etc. in Carman’s chatroom they should be banned. I have never disagreed with that nor have I stated that doing this specific action makes Carman appear deceitful.
God bless,
To Michele
Before you go to Carman to “rebuke” him, please double check your method. You use scriptures to show how he could be failing in his walk, but I implore you to please check the scripture how you are handling rebuke. You say you are are only motivated by love so please check to see if you are basing your idea of love on your warm feelings or on what the Bible says love “is”… Begin with love is patient. No one on this forum has practiced that. If you want an idea of how long we are to practice being patient read about Abraham and Job.
You might also want to test love keeps no record of wrongs and check to see if your understanding of what Carman has done wrong is being colored by your own hurts from the past. (Admin. I am not being an enabler…read on) Michele, I assure you Carman has always been a man that has treated women fairly. He has always been supportive of women from colorful pasts who many Christians would judge. Carman cares deeply about women who have suffered abuse and if you saw the “Champion” he dealt with the issue of women being hurt by Christian men they trusted because they were a Christian.
I will not give you the name of one pastor who Carman has said his ministry is accountable to, but the man has written books on the healing of God for women who have been abused, as well as being pastor over a church that offers counseling for women who have gone through divorce or abuse.
Maybe this will help you to take a step back before possibly hurting Carman further.
Thanks,
Dawn
Millie,
If all you did was “confront†Carman, then why are you encouraging and participating in gossiping about what you believe he has done wrong? Why do you feel that the body should rebuke/confront/discuss him publicly? Why do you think it is okay for other Christians to judge him when we don’t even have all the facts?
If you need to talk to someone so that you can work out your thoughts or whatever, then take it to Jesus. And if you have to talk to someone, why not one of your information sources.
Unless you are Rose or Carman, you do not know what happened in those 4 months. You have no idea what has caused Carman to take the action that he has. And there may be a legit reason why he cannot disclose any information at this time.
You don’t even know why they got married or why they didn’t get counseling before hand. But you’re not jumping on them about that. If they’d gone to counseling they might have found out that they shouldn’t have gotten married and then avoided this mess. And since you don’t know God’s Perfect Will for their lives, it is possible that they were out of His Will when they got married. Maybe that’s why they rushed and didn’t go to counseling. It would certainly explain why their are so many problems so early in the marriage.
You said “Especially in the times that we live, our children need to know their heroes believe that marriage is sacred and blessed. Is that asking too much??†No, and I haven’t heard either Rose or Carman say that marriage is not sacred and blessed. And you can’t say that their actions do, because you cannot and do not have all the facts.
If your kids have anyone other than Jesus as their “heroâ€, then they’re doomed to disappointment.
As fellow Christians we should be praying for God’s Perfect Will to be done in both their lives. We should not be encouraging each other to assume this man is guilty and then jump all over him and tell him how wrong he is.
Oh, and I don’t want all the details, I have my own sources. But if you want people to follow you and publicly “confront†this man, you better come up with more that just rumors, assumptions, and gossip.
What I want is for you to stand up and say what you’ve got to say to Carman publicly. But all’s you’ve done is hide your “concerns†inside posts either addressed to other people or to no one at all. That turns them from concerns into gossip.
If you have concerns with him, then you need to take them to him, not us. When you take your “concerns†to a public forum instead of to the person, you are spreading gossip.
I don’t know what Carman did to you that you don’t like him, but it’s your responsibility to forgive him, for your own spiritual health.
I’ve forgiven him for the wrongs he’s committed against me. Trust me, it makes all the difference in the world.
And you are called to pray for those you see commit sin. So, are you doing that? I am. I pray everyday that God will help Carman be the man that He wants him to be. I pray everyday that he will seek to follow God’s Perfect Will for his life. Since I don’t know what God’s Perfect Will is for Carman, I’m not about to tell him that he’s wrong. Instead I pray, because prayer works.
Every time I see Carman do something that I think is not what God wants him to do, I pray. I pray that God will either show him clearly what he should do, or that God will change my mind. I also pray that God will help me to remember and accept that Carman is the only one who has to answer to Jesus about his actions.
It’s easy to pick out what’s wrong with Carman and his ministry (I’m sure I could come up with a book full). But that doesn’t mean we should. It’s always easy to find fault in others that’s why Jesus told us we’re not supposed to judge their actions.
You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can’t pick your friend’s nose. Sick, but deadly accurate. Once you’ve told Carman he has a boger hanging out of his nose, it’s up to him to remove it.
And for all you know Rose may be the one at fault here. And don’t even tell me that you know her and you know the truth. Because it just ain’t so. You never really know anyone. Only God really knows them and what’s in their heart.
I’m not saying that Rose is hiding an evil nature, but I am saying that it is a possibility. And unless you are Carman or Rose you cannot know what the real truth is. We may never know.
Let me open your eyes about people hiding their true natures, even over decades.
My mom had a bad childhood. She was unwanted by her mother. Because of this upbringing I have never known anyone that could fool her. Within a few minutes and very few questions, she can figure you out to a “Tâ€. It’s learned protective action that some abused people have.
When she married my father she felt that God had blessed her with a great, loving mother-in-law. She told everyone how great God was to her to do this.
My Grandmother (dad’s Mom) was a professing Christian who attended church on a regular basis. Lots of people said how nice and sweet she was.
Over the years little things would happen. Like Grandma would pull out in front of other drivers and then go on and on about how bad that was of her and “just look at his face, he’s really mad. Oh, that was so terrible of me. Oh dear.†Well, we’d just tell her it was okay and go on. And then there was the Christmas where she left the price tags on all our gifts. We just chalked it up to her getting older.
One time a woman came up to her in a store and began reading her the riot act. We thought the woman was crazy. She accused my Grandmother of all kinds of evil and told her that eventually people would find out what she was really like. My Grandmother was upset and said she had no idea why this lady would do that.
After 17 years of marriage my mom and I were in a car accident. My mom was severely injured. She was in so much pain she kept praying for God to take her home. It was awful.
One day my grandparents made a special trip to the house to talk to my mom while everyone else was gone. My Grandmother proceeded to verbally beat my mom up. She told her that she was just lazy and that she was faking her injuries so she didn’t have to work. She went on and on and then she said that my mom had turned her son into a religious fanatic. (I don’t fully understand this statement. I think my Grandmother was upset because my dad was getting involved in different ministries in town and was very involved in our church and their battle with the local school district.)
Granted I didn’t witness this attack, but I believed my mom. I believed her because I looked back over all the “little things†and it all started to make sense. All the times Grandma had made little degrading or humiliating comments to me when Dad wasn’t around. I thought maybe I heard her wrong, or she was having a bad day or something.
After that day, Grandma was still sneaky, but with us her manipulations wasn’t effective.
My dad didn’t really believe my mom, but he did try to protect her from his parents after that. Yet, after his father died his mother focused on him. She created so much stress in his life that he actually felt relief when she passed away. And after all these years he’s finally starting to put all the pieces together and see that his mother had been a manipulator all of her life. She was just really good at hiding her true nature.
My Grandmother showed her true self because she was scared to death that my parents were going to go broke and that she & my Grandfather were going to have to take care of them. And they couldn’t have that because they didn’t plan on dying and they certainly weren’t going back to work.
She’s the only person who’s ever fooled my mom. And that’s probably because my mom really wanted a good mother and she really loved my dad.
(F.Y.I. My parents are still married. And the Bible says that manipulation is witchcraft.)
My advise to you, and everyone here, is to pray. A lot. God bless you. I pray that He will help you to forgive and be someone who shows the Love the Jesus to the world and help them to accept His gift of salvation. That’s what we’re here for.
If anyone had a clue what they were talking about on this site, it would really be refreshing. ADMIN: what is this the STAR rag magazine? Shut this thing down. It’s making Christians look stupid. I am so embarrased.
Carman is a man of God. Deal with it. Get on with your lives and let him live his. He has souls to win for the Lord. Leave him alone now.
TRUST GOD, LOVE PEOPLE, COMMAND THE DEVIL, USE THINGS. And shut the heck up.
Dawn,
It has never been my intent to hurt Carman at all. I will admit that I have a struggle with my mouth but as I have said, I believe I have been honest in what I have stated and I believe I have been upfront. At least you have provided me with reasons why you believe it is ok to sell pictures on the website and I appreciate your opinion even though I would not sell pictures if I were in this situation because I would be afraid I wound offend those who feel as I do. (Of course, I could probably not sell any pictures anyway and might not be able to give them away!) But then again my feelings regarding this whole issue might have something to do with my more conservative background.
I really don’t see how stating my opinion could hurt Carman unless other individuals agreed with my opinion too? It seems like it would be more appropriate to try to let Carman and the ministry know how I feel about these things. (And for the record, I have now made two attempts to do so.) Not saying anything would be more like “pretending that the emperor wasn’t naked” (if you remember that story). Everyone could pretend like there wasn’t an issue when there really was an issue.
I will, however, meditate on what you have said.
God bless,
Oh by the way Anon 4….I have contributed to the ministry before but I am not currently.
Michele if you manage to make it in the world without ever offending anyone let me know!! Cause no matter what you do you are never gonna please everyone (no matter how conservative you are), and that same goes for Carman! If he sits back and waits for approval from every person he wouldn’t do anything. What counts is if he is doing what God wants him to do!
And to Dawn, no I don’t believe my “understanding of what Carman has done wrong is being colored” by my “own hurts from the past.” I have stated my concerns previously and do not feel that I need to state them again. The ONLY way I can see that my past might have to do with it is my sensitivity that I have gained by being an abuse victim (as Carol Anne has stated). I believe I am extremely intuitive and generally know what is going on around me in all directions and for a pretty large distance from myself. Perhaps this is because I have had someone come from behind me and grab me and hold a gun to my head (and yes admin you can print this).
When you go through something like this, you tend to notice everything. And when your newly wired alarm system goes off, you catalog everything around your and become very good with details. Thus, it become very hard to fool you.
Having said that, I am not going to allow myself to be pulled back into my past nor am I going to allow myself to be manipulated. I WILL NOT be back. I am going to do as my husband has suggested and stay in my own little conservative world and try to win souls the old fashion way.
#16 Anonymous 4
I’m sorry if you didn’t like me answering Michele’s request for contact information. But I didn’t give her anything that she didn’t already post or could have come up with on her own.
I really don’t want everyone to bombard Carman and make things worse, but I really didn’t think I was giving out any sensitive (non-public) information. I sure hope Carman and the ministry have gotten some high tech virus software, especially after the mess he had on his laptop. (I’m sure you recall that information from one of his newsletters.)
I just keep praying that Carman will listen to the Lord and do what He wants him to do, whatever that is. And I hope that those who read this blog would do the same, regardless of how they feel about him. Prayer is the only answer.
Jesus will take care of him because He loves him and wants and knows what is the best for him. God wants to fulfill the desires of his heart because He’s the one who put them there. But Carman has to follow Him and do what He wants him to do and when He wants him to do it. Shortcuts (moving by the arm of the flesh instead of in the spirit) can cause problems and you end up having to start over.
We have all sinned and fallen short. Unfortunately Carman is a public figure and people are using this blog as a way to vent their emotions. However, if he stays in prayer, then God will be able to help him handle the problems that may arise.
With Jesus on your side, none who come against you will prosper. This is true not just for us, but for Carman as well.
Thank you for your support. I’m glad that I was able to be a vessel for the Holy Spirit to work through.
********************
Dawn and Patti:
Thank you for posting your opinions
==================
To everyone reading this blog:
Rebuke/Confrontation, or whatever you want to label it, should only be done by the leading of the Holy Spirit, not out of emotion. When God wants you to go to someone He will give you the perfect opportunity and the perfect words. Most people don’t like to be confronted and will shut down and not listen to the person confronting them. This is especially true when the person doing the confronting is not anointed by God to do so. Some people will even run the other way and do what you just confronted them about, just to spite you.
As Christians we should be praying for our brothers and sisters when we see them in trouble, regardless of how it effects us or how we feel about the person. We need to be Jesus to them in their times of trouble.
Prayer is the answer to everything. Regardless of what church you’re in or what you believe or what scriptures you follow, prayer changes things.
If you have unresolved issues in your life, or relationships that are broken or estranged, if you’re living with anger or hatred, if you’re addicted to something, or what ever you’re problem is, then prayer is the answer. If God doesn’t just remove it from your life, then He’ll give you guidance and help you to get the help you need. Pray and seek His Perfect Will for your life and then follow His Perfect Will and you will be blessed all the days of your life.
Two pieces of advice that I carry with me are read your Bible and pray everyday and Jesus is the only friend you need. When I was a kid my mom used to tell me these two things as her standard answer to my problems. I used to think it was dumb. After all, Jesus can’t push you in a swing on the playground, that’s what friends are for. But now that I’m an adult I realize my mom was right all along.
Thank you all for your time and feedback. I continue to pray that God will move in your life and help you to be the person He wants you to be. I pray that you will clearly hear the Holy Spirit and follow God’s Perfect Will for your life. I pray God’s Blessings to be poured out upon you in abundance. I pray and ask all these things in the Name of Jesus. Amen.
+++++++++++++++++
And to those who don’t know Jesus or don’t call him a friend:
I continue to pray for you too. Please seek Him for yourself. Please understand that He loves you so much that He died for you. In return He asks only that you believe in Him and accept him into your heart as the Lord of your life. He loves you regardless of who you are or what you have hidden in your heart. He loves you regardless of what you’ve done or said. He love you! Please give Him a chance and get to know Him.
___________________
Admin:
I agree that the blog does seem to be winding down and that most people have come to their own conclusions and that further discussion here is not going to change any minds. If you haven’t already done so, I would suggest that you pray about whether or not God wants you to continue this blog. (He may want it to continue, I don’t know, I’m just saying that I hope you’re praying about it.)
Urgggg! “you” not “your” . . . . I cannot type, etc. when I’m upset.
Goodbye and God Bless!
Michele,
You “honestly” think you have the right to question the people in authority over Carman when you admit that your own husband has been “advising” you to stop posting here, yet you have refused to submit to him disobeying an absolute teaching of the Bible?
Or to point this out am I thus being an enabler. Can no one rebuke these women?
No need to pray, it’s a no brainer, close the thing.
Dear Carol Anne,
I am sorry you have had such problems in your family, and I can see how you would
view things through those painful experiences.
We are not talking about minors here. Getting married is something that is honored by God (even if it happened in Vegas, and without proper preparation), getting an annulment just makes two mistakes. (Like aborting an unwanted baby because you made the child with the wrong person.)
“Working it out” would be a testimony, “getting out” would be a tragedy. I read that in an earlier post, and I agree. Try having faith for a reconciliation rather than justifying an annulment.
But if you want to give Carman a pass…then go ahead. Just think about how you’re going to explain that to the next couple who wants out of a marriage and uses Carman as their example.
God is exposing things. Kenneth Hagin prophesied it just before his death. Did you read the Los Angeles Times today? God is allowing things to be exposed. There will be much more before this is all over. The article is about Paul Crouch and even mentions Carmans brother Mario in regards to things Benny Hinn knew about Paul Crouch. God is allowing these things to be exposed. Carman and Mario Murillio don’t want this web site to go on and Admin I warn you that they will try to stop you from allowing people to discuss their lives, and their ministries on this site. They will accuse you of slander which is their favorite thing to accuse people of… Slander… They are afraid of being exposed. You see when you are walking in purity, you don’t care what people say about you, because you know the truth about yourself and the truth has set you free. But when you have lied and deceived you don’t want that to be exposed. You don’t want your sins exposed on television, newspapers or a web site.
But we don’t have to expose them. God will do it. And God is doing it. Some are suffering from deep depression and it’s because of secret sins in their lives. Many ministers are on sleeping pills and other medications because they can’t handle the heaviness of their own sins. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We need to pray. Our leaders are in shambles.. If the head stinks, then the entire body stinks. We need to pray for our leaders. We are praying for Carman and his wife Rose and all that are involved in this situation. We are praying for Mario Murillio Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn and praying for all of our leaders who seem to have some secret issues in their lives. If they will repent and deal with those issues God will cover them and not expose them. But if they don’t deal with it, God uses things just like this to get their attention. God get their attention before it’s too late.
Wow. I don’t know what to say. I found this site by accident. Apparently some of you post here often. My question is this…”Why?” Why would ANYONE choose to be a part of something like this? So much mean spiritedness. Please, take a moment & look at yourselves. Do you really LIKE what you see? I have found over the years of ministry that those who do the most judging, the most gossip & the most rebuking are the ones with the most to hide & the most to be ashamed of. Someone I was once very close to was one of the most unforgiving, judgemental & bitter people I had ever met. AND DEFENSIVE, woe. Completely! No one could say ANYTHING to him! Whenever anyone tried to point out that he being critical or judgemental, he would proudly say “God has called me to be a fruit inspector”. He wasn’t judging, just “inspecting” to make sure everyone around him was bearing Godly fruit. Keep in mind, this was merely a laborer. NOT in any type of authorative position. He was one of those people who only watched Christian TV so that he would have something to argue about over prayer breakfast. Full of arrogance & self-importance. Come to find out, 10 years later, he’s gay. He was sooo frustrated with himself & his own shortcomings that he constantly put others down & judged them harshly so he wouldn’t fee so bad about his own sin AND to keep the SIN-SPOTLIGHT shined on others so that his own sin couldn’t be seen. I have a storng feeling that that’s what’s going on here. Not the gay part, the judgemental, hurtful “fruit inspecting” sinners (of which we all are) who are trying to make themselves feel important, accepted and/or better about the sin in their own lives. The kind who will listen to the sermon, only for the purpose of telling him how wrong he was later. The kind who are like the crazt liberals who tape shows like the 700 CLUB for the purpose of catching them saying something against gays, or abortion activists so they can sue them or try to ruin them financially. Don’t mis-understand…this ISN’T directed at all of you. But, he’s a clue who it is for. If your heart is pounding, your breathing is short, your month is getting dry and your head is ALREADY spinning with all the retalitory things you are running for a pen to write down to blast me with, this post is for you. QUICK! RUN TO YOUR BIBLE! You have passages (Completely out of context) ready and marked for the occasion! And to Beef Jerky…Leland, is that you? Now, to keep myself from sinking any further to the level of this discussion, I will say goodbye. I will also pray that no non-Christian ever finds this link. I will pray that sites of love, and encouragement will be found instead. Mostly, I pray CARMAN never sees this site!
Observer:
I really have no issues with you giving out what is, of course, public information. I was just trying to make the point that if these people are contributors to the ministry then they should know where to access that information. I don’t see why anyone who doesn’t have any financial, or other interest in the ministry would have any right to complain to Carman about anything, little on “rebuke” him for his actions.
I think we all need to fast and pray for Carman and for each other.
This post bears repeating: I too have been a long time supporter of this ministry.
Until I did a little research.
Over and over again in Carman’s post in his chat room he had opportunity after opportunity to share with his partners that he was married. Keep in mind he was married on Jan. 8, 2004 (see post #3).
Let me just quote a few:
Jan. 27, 2004:
Question: We know Mario’s advise to you on marriage…what would Momma Nancy’s be?
Answer: Anytime I even date somebody once, her advice is always (without meeting her), Oh just jump in, get married and get it over with…I’m tired of praying for you about this.â€
Jan. 27, 2004:
Question: Being an ordained minister, when you find your wife, would you marry yourselves?
Answer: Sounds good…then after the honeymoon I can shout…”Psych!!!! I had my fingers crossed.â€
Jan. 27, 2004
Question: Have you ever brought a girl a diamond?
Answer: Yes, but she complained that she wanted a ring to go with it…that’s where the relationship stalled.
Jan. 27, 2004
Question: Would you rather want a wife who is more intelligent than you or less?
Answer: I ain’t that smart and never graduated high school…so my goal would be to find someone dumber than me….I’m still looking.
Feb 24, 2004
Question: Carman, when you get married, you are still going to be watching ESPN right? But what if your wife wants you to be with her when your favorite fight is on what will you do?
Honestly?
Answer: Be a total hero and turn off the TV while she watches in stunned amazement…and admiration. ……..
I got it all worked out.
Feb. 24, 2004
Question: Carman how many children do you want, or would like to have?
Answer: That totally depends on the woman. What if she can’t have kids and we have to rent? I would prefer leasing with the option to buy.
Feb. 24, 2004
Question: If God gave you a wife in the film or TV business, would you work with her on the projects she had or would you rather she used her gifts to work on the projects you have?
Answer: It all depends on how involved she was with what she did. Sometimes careers like that don’t criss/cross…but if she was making 20 million a movie like Julia Roberts…then I would have no problem chillin like a villain and saying “You go girl†…Cause I still believe that a woman’s place is in the home…and that’s exactly where she should go…as soon as she gets off work.
March 23, 2004
Question: How will Carman feel…if he never gets married?
Answer: That’s a good question…hold on I’ll ask him…”Yo Carm….he said hang on he’s eating krispy kreme donuts…(can’t bother him)
March 23, 2004
Question: What is your favorite hymn?
Answer: “Search Me Oh God”…I recorded it on the Hymns record. It’s the cry of my heart and the most moving song I ever heard when dealing with one’s personal relationship with the Lord.
March 23, 2004
Question: Are you content being single and doing pretty much as you please?
Answer: Who said you get to do what you please when your single?
April 17, 2004
Question: Do you feel complete as a single person or do you think that you’ll never be complete until your married?
Answer: The scripture tells us that we are complete in Christ alone. Marriage would definitely be a wonderful addition to that. A ceramic pasta bowl is complete when it’s painted, fired and polished. But put a pile of spaghetti in it and the word completion takes on a new meaning? I think it’s purpose.
May 18, 2004
Question: Do you believe a minister should be accountable to his congregation?
Answer: Absolutely, But only in as far as things that would affect his credibility.
June 26, 2004
Question: How do you think you’ll know when you’ve met the lady who will be your wife?
Answer: I will probably marry her. That’s how I’ll know.
Time and time again Carman was given the opportunity to tell his partners that he was married…and every time he skirted the issue or he gave the impression he was still single.
Maybe we should end this with the words to “Search Me Oh God”.
“Search me oh God, and know my heart today.
Try me, oh Savior, know my thoughts I pray…
See if there be some wicked way in me.
Cleanse me from every sin,
And set me free.â€
You have asked who is Carman’s pastor…who is he accountable too? Carman has
lived in California, Texas, Tennessee, back to California, Las Vegas and now Florida. And that is just in the last 4 years. How is anyone going to find who his Pastor is?
His ministry staff is very protective and won’t answer any questions. His partners have all been warned not to speak of this or they will be kicked off his web site.
There is a shaking going on in the Kingdom. Now even Paul Crouch is on the news.
There you go, Administration, that’s another blog for you, it made FOX news tonight.
I’m going back to the little church around the corner where I grew up. All of a sudden it doesn’t seem so “old fashion” anymore. The Pastor has served there for 35 years faithfully and without scandel. He hasn’t had 10’s of thousands of people in his congregation, they still think “He Touched Me” is a new song, but I trust him to rightly divide the Word of God and to live by the Book.
This will be my last post here, so let me say this to Carman, if you are reading this. I listen to Dr. Laura on the radio sometimes, and she always ends her talk with, “now, go do the right thing.”
That is pretty good advise.
amen #7 and #20
Well, well, well Ms. Dawn,
Maybe it is because I advised her and did not demand it of her. Seems like that is the most appropriate way to show love, don’t ya think?
I’ve had this type pegged for a very long time. Michele’s heart is more willing to believe.
But she sees this for what it is now and I think God for that.
And to you….get a clue!
To #34 Disappointed Partner, according to Deannza, maybe post #458 on the first page, said the date on the chat posts were false, they were a year earlier. #458 Deanza’s quote: “Carman has always (before Jan 8 included) put a spin on things never answering to many personal question directly and usually ending in a joking manner. When the answer about what is the 4th of July special about and Carman answers and it’s a year after the special that tells you- Carman did not sit down on January xx 2004 and answer but 2003 before the special was on.” Deannza is on a mission trip and will not be back for maybe a few months or so, no internet there.
By the way, she asked me to hold her accountable so she could stay out of here so I have been looking around to see what is here.
Now don’t bother to respond. I will be blocking this site.
(Nothing against you admin, I am not interested in reading the posts of those who want to cover deceit. And God will uncover the deceit.)
Marnie,
Do you realize that the number one way to discredit any man is to “alledge” them as having a homosexual encounter. In order to stop this alledge usually must involve a lawsuit in which the only people who can win is the attornies for the alledger and the alledger themselves, because in our society, especially among Christians we believe guilty unless proven beyond “our” doubts that you are innocent.
And with so many Christians already believing the worst about each other that is impossible to do.
The Los Angeles Times is a very biased newspaper and is probably one of TBN’s greatest enemies. They have sided with other “Christians” who want to see the downfall of TBN. And with this being an election year a lot rides on causing those Christians like yourself who will believe anything and quickly turn on those who politically support the other side.
Get real folks. From what I understand those questions were part of the chat archives posted “after” January 8th. While it is true the questions could have been answered beforehand, it is also true that Carman and his staff had EVERY opportunity to change the answers or not to include them if they wanted to.
The fact is THEY or HE did Not want to change them. And that is deceit I believe.
Some people will follow this man (or people like him) regardless of the obvious.
Millie,
This is very interesting. It seems to me that Carol Anne was mentioned as a family member of Carman’s in one of the questions of the day or chat transcripts. There obviously is some relationship there because she has forgiven Carman for what he has done to her.
I’ll let everyone else read between the lines. Or would that be gossip? Or would it be pointing out the obvious “facts”.
Dawn,
#39
In all due respect, I am very suspicious of TBN and have been for a long time. And I am not a person “who will believe anything”. There have been “rumors” about TBN leaders for years. Some sources are respectable, some questionable. But I have learned to trust my own discernment – and I am not at all comfortable with the practices and preaching of the people in question.
Now, whether the allegations against Paul Crouch are true – who knows. But you can bet that I will watch that story with eyes wide open and my trust and pur$e guarded.
Thankfully, unless God specifically calls us to be involved, we don’t have to worry about proving the Truth. For our bible tells us that: “Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed. ” Proverbs 12:19 NLT
Beware…. the wolves are at the door…….
#37: I read the post last time that suggested that questions are sometimes rotated on Carman’s web chats and those questions and answers I stated do not always reflect the current conversations.
That is why I put in at least one from each month. They were not ALL rotated.
And if they were…all the more reason to suspect deception. Because Carman and his ministry knew at that time that he was married. So why deliberately put in rotated questions that would imply he was still single, if not to deceive his financial base? You can not get out of this one so easily. Either way, it is wrong. I had a feeling that was the spin you would put on it, so I did read this blog one more time today. Now I am really leaving. Do with this information what you will.
You get only my support Janice!! Amen!! Preach it!! Marnie, I think you need to be more selective in what materials you chose to read to tell you about ministers. The Los Angeles Times would not be the most valid source of information. And Disappointed Partner would you chill with the questions. Step back and look at them with a little sense of humor! I don’t feel with any of those that Carman was trying to deceive anyone , but simply trying to make you laugh!! Come on try it now!! It really makes the load a little lighter! And Michele’s husband..just in case you peek..Bye bye ..so long farewell!
Dear Millie,
Thank you for your concern. Did you get my point? No one really knows anyone. My Grandmother had lots of friends who thought she was the sweetest woman in the world.
You need to ask yourself “What would Jesus do?†(hint: John 8:1-11)
And “What did Jesus tell us not to do?†(hint: Matthew 7:1-5)
For example: for all you know Rose could have committed adultery. I’m not saying she did, but it is possible that Carman has a Biblical reason for his actions. (Regardless of what you think or what you’ve “heard.” You are not God, Rose, or Carman, so you don’t know the truth anymore than anyone else does.)
And regardless of what you “knowâ€, you are called to pray for those you see in sin and not to judge them.
Everyone must seek and follow God’s will for their life. Making excuses that someone else did it, is childish and shows that you seek to follow your own will and not God’s.
We are called to pray and that’s the only thing we should be doing, especially in a public forum.
In Christ,
Carol Anne
Carol Anne, is there any particular reason you have chosen me to single out? I really don’t care if you support Carman or not.
I think “Disappointed Partner” did a remarkable job of explaining why Carman should not be trusted. He plain ol’ lied, and if you are a partner…then he lied to you! If you want to support that, go ahead.
It seems to me that Carman has unleashed a few supporters. Great. They can read the other side of the argument that they don’t get on his web site. What you have labeled as “rebuke” is simply telling the truth. It’s a totally new concept to a few Christian Leaders today, hang in there, it’ll catch on.
I haven’t been on for awhile, but what I see is just sad. I agree that Carman should have tried to save his marriage, but that’s not going to happen. So, let’s just let him be.
There are deeper issues that he has, and all of this is making it easy for him to focus on something to hate, rather then deal with the pain inside.
Carman, we are praying for you. We are praying for inner strength and for God to touch those spots inside that have been wounded, maybe for years.
There is so much to do in the Kingdom of God, surely we can all put our attention on things above and not on things below. Give him some space to collect his thoughts and see what God can do when His children start to pray…instead of prey.
I really don’t think that the important issue here is “these people’s sins” or lack of them if you will. I think the issue is the general selling of Christianity to make money…thats where I think the wrong is in ALL of these matters…and “how” its being done. Its like when Christianity is used to give someone political advantage, or is used to give someone great monetary gain. I see a problem there. Anyone else? (everybody is a sinner, think of your own life and if you would like it splashed on the internet in little soundbites.) But a consistant effort to make great money by deception or to gain something by deception by using christianity is where I have issues.
“Arnetta”:
I tried to e-mail you in respose to a comment you made but the e-mail bounced. Could you please e-mail me to where I could reply back to you
Thanks
Just One Voice when did you become his personal confidante? I’ve found that’s the best way to know about someone’s inner pain, and even at that there is no way you can know exactly what they feel inside. So stop trying to make people believe you know so much because you don’t. And Millie you have no idea what the truth is. If you think you found it here you have alot to learn! This is not truth..this is opinion and “I Heard” also known as gossip.
Millie
I’m sorry that you feel singled out. This started because I directly responded to statements you and Raye made here. If you’re going to post on a public blog, then you have to expect that someone may question what you post.
You can end this at any time by not making statements against me personally that I feel the need to address. Such as asking me questions about what I would say or do in certain situations. If you ask me a question, I will respond. Also making comments meant to belittle my point of view will guarantee that I will respond. Your latest post is typical of this behavior. Why do you feel the need to continue our dialog if it upsets you? (You don’t have to answer that.)
I am not a current financial supporter of Carman’s Ministry. He has not told me or encouraged me to post here or to single you out. (Nor has anyone done so on his behalf.) I have never paid to be part of the “Member’s Only†part of his ministry, and I have never been to his chat section (even when it was free).
I feel led of the Holy Spirit to post here. I really mean that. I don’t like to see any Christian treated in the manner that Carman has been on this site. It’s deplorable and makes you look bad. It makes you look like you don’t have the Love of Jesus in your heart.
I know that you have inside information. You’re not the only one. But as a Christian you are not supposed to be making judgments and posting your “concerns†in a public forum (because it’s gossip).
You are supposed to be praying for the person you think/know has committed a sin.
Why do you feel it is necessary to dump all over this particular man? Why not on all the hundreds of other Christian leaders out there who have committed much greater sins? (No, you don’t need to respond to these questions either.)
And again I will point out that if what he’s done, to you personally and to his partners, is so bad, then why have you not taken some type of action? (You don’t have to answer that one either.) Talk is cheap and shows that you are just looking for an outlet to voice your anger, because you have no other course of action. That ought to tell you that what you are doing is not Christ like.
I’ll spell it out for you. My point has always been, and will continue to be, that by discussing this man, in the manner presented by you and others on this site, in a public forum is gossip, judgment, and just plain wrong. I and others have clearly stated what God’s Word says about such actions. They are wrong. The only thing we should be doing is praying. And by your posts, we have no idea if you are doing that or not.
I thought this was an open discussion blog, but if you want to stop, just stop.
No rebuttal required or desired,
Carol Anne
To Will Not Be Deceived:
Now pay attention…..I am not, nor have I ever been related to Carman or any of his family or friends.
I hope this clears things up for you.
In Christ,
Carol Anne
To those Christians who still believe the way to please Jesus is to remain wretched and poor….
I too used to believe that way. I would get angry when I saw Christians building these fancy-mancy churches. I would always complain…how foolish and wasteful… just think of all that money that could help the poor…. Then I read where God himself gave instructions for His temple. God commanded the very best be used… the highest quality of materials and the best workman and craftsmen…. Then I believe the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the truth… God expects us to lavish His houses or anything else we give him with the best money can buy.
Fault TBN or Carman and all other ministries if you want about asking for money, but I measure them with how well do they use that money to lavish it upon God… TBN has always done an excellant job and Carman has always spared no expense in his concerts. This is what God wants, this honors God. Not this teaching that God wants us to remain poor…. Watch the CBS show “The Amazing Race 5″ and look at all the nations whose God is not the Lord and you will see some of the most wretched and poor people of the earth.
We’ve all heard the saying, “give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, but teach a man to fish and he can eat every day”… That is the difference between giving men bread and giving men the Word of God… but this takes faith. Yes we should give to the hungery, but it is our genuine understanding and “love” for Jesus Christ that makes us “know” just what He can do and give to these people more than our one loaf and one fish can provide.
Since I used to feel anger toward those large church buildings, I have traveled to many places and have seen the most ornate cathedrals and churches built to the honor and glory of God. When I go inside, I have to worship and praise God… But I see others, tourists, who just wander through, discussing only the “history” of the building. At first I was angry, but again, I believe the Holy Spirit stopped me and showed me that these buildings were meant to be a reminder to all those who pass through of God’s Son Jesus Christ. Rather they come in and worship Him or not, people are reminded of Jesus Christ throughout the generations to come.
This kind of lasting honor to Jesus Christ happened because of wealthy men and kings giving to “fund” these enormous buildings that used the best materials and had the best craftsman and artists to build them. This is the example the Bible gave us by God Himself.
So I say give to the honor of Jesus Christ. The first Christians did. Paul could perform miracles, but he went to those who believed and had accepted Jesus Christ to “fund” his work.
Our local churches are there to teach us and prepare us to “then” go out into the world and tell others about Jesus Christ. Carman is doing that and thanks to TBN they have made our jobs that much easier by providing satelites that reach vitually every place on earth. And for those of us who do not go “out”, we can give and help “fund” those who do go out. That is how it works.
And as far as men politically using our faith to get elected— how else will we know who will protect us and our faith? One man has shown he will, the other has shown that he supports those who would do away with our faith or change it…. Jesus Christ did not want us to remain ignorant but to understand what is going on around us.
Bless God and glory be to Him forever!
Hi:
I have recently discovered this post. I checked the court records at the beginning of this post, concerning his married status, and I find no such information.
Can anyone confirm, if this marriage to someone by the name of Rose is true, and if it has been annuled?
thanks,
####################
Admin here:
I went to both links and the data is still there. The annulment proceedings are still in process.
I would like to know if anyone has verified that the Rose is Marios Exwife. Carman has a workout series followed by a CD that tells of his inspiration for the lyrics he wrote. On the very first one which is God Is Exalted, he is asked about the flight attendant used in this song. He said her name is Rose. He said she was a flight attendant and hes known her for a long time. Could it be that someone started a rumor about the Rose being Marios exwife? Has that ever been confirmed? I’ve seen no proof of that.
BJ
When you put on a luncheon or a dinner, don’t invite your friends, brothers, relatives, and rich neighbors. For they will repay you by inviting you back. Instead, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. Then at the resurrection of the godly, God will reward you for inviting those who could not repay you.
Sell what you have and give to those in need. This will store up treasure for you in heaven. And the purses of heaven have no holes in them. Your treasure will be safe-no thief can steal it and no moth can destroy it. Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be.
Foxes have dens to live in, and birds have nests, but I, the Son of Man, have no home of my own, not even a place to lay my head.
Don’t even take along a walking stick, nor a travelers bag, nor food, nor money. Not even an extra coat. When you enter a village be a guest in only one home.
If any of you wants to be my follower, you must put aside your selfish ambition, shoulder your cross daily, and follow me. And how do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose or forfeit your own soul in the process?
(I just was reading about Jesus and money here in the Bible and thought I’d quote a bit.)
$425,000.00 for hush hush money (tbn paid to a man that crouch didn’t have sex with?) Think of how many souls that could have reached? how many people could have been fed,clothed,housed,etc. But TBN please almost a 1/2 million dollars (of you donations) to silence a man that crouch did not have sex with because it was to time consuming?) Was a great stewart of your money (TBN and CARMAN) are with the $$$ that you send to help salvation of lost souls. next time just try to reach the soul of the person next to you and keep your wallet in your pocket…. salvation is won one soul at a time
BJ, It’s not a rumor. I’ve seen it confirmed by her legal name, her mother’s name, her birth date, her marriage records, her divorce records and her social security number. Carman married Murillo’s ex-wife, Rose.
To Dawn:
You are right on the money!
We are called to give God our best, even the best of the best.
And no one is perfect except Jesus. We all have sins. Yes, if you don’t repent, your sin will find you out and it may end up hurting the work that God has done through you. But God gives you lots of chances to repent before that ever happens.
And regardless, we are stilled called to pray for those we see sin, not judge them.
To Trixie,
TBN did not pay the money. The article clearly states that Paul Crouch paid it out of his own pocket.
Learn to read….
Dear Admin:
I cannot pull up the data on the annulment proceedings.
If you are able to pull up annulment proceedings, would you so kindly do so and forward the link to me at ekklesiaforall@yahoo.com so that I can see.
Also, what is the date that the annulment proceedings were filed?
Thanks for your help,
Admin:
One more question…… Do you know how old Rose is?
And do you know if she and Mario had any children together, and how long they’ve been divorced?
Thanks,
#56
So Jesus wanted us “all” to be remain poor? Do you understand this is for all of us, not just leaders, but all who would follow Him? Is this what everyone who is a Christian is doing? Is this what #56 is doing? You think Jesus wants us to be homeless?
Scripture also teaches “give the workers” his pay and to pray for more “workers”. Jesus also taught us about asking God for personal things.
But notice how those who do seem to follow this being poor brand of thinking what their preaching and teaching consists of— mockery! Mockery of other Christians and the men and women who are winning souls. They most likely think because they do not make money off of God, but have other jobs that they are most like Paul. But how many people do you think they turn away with such condemnation of others, feasting on and celebrating their hated brothers in Christ’s disgrace and pain?
On this one forum of Carman we have seen possibly two. Many did not even care. But Jesus was the One who would leave the ninty-nine others to go after just one lost sheep. But these mockers only want to waste “free” time and space and their “free” opportunity to mock other men who are winning souls and to discredit them any way they can.
Time after time people have said, “There is no love here.” But these mockers and accusers feel superior because they don’t ask for money. Lack of love is nothing in comparrison to those men preaching the Gospel who possesses money. For them possession of money is a sure sign something is wrong and all you will ever need to “condemn” these ministries to endless mockery.
As for the near half million hush money #57, think about how many more souls would have been lost if these rumors and allegations had been allowed to spread six years ago? If anyone knows how susceptible Christians are to lies and rumors it would be Paul and Jan Crouch. So now think about how many will be lost now. But what do those who have always hated them care? Take the satellites down… isn’t that what so many of you want? Jesus would have wanted it that way— The Bible tells about an angel and the scroll circling the earth proclaiming “Fear God.” TBN was a prophecy come to pass. If not TBN then who and without the use of money? As for the angel– who can hear the angel of the Lord if men of God are not there to make us aware of what is being said.
And as for praise and worship music going on 24/7 read Revelations. It seems God likes that…. but wait, that takes money. Or do some of you still believe the world just gives us everything we need to preach the gospel “free” of charge. That is how the ignorant think it must happen.
And what about Jesus words about giving and receiving much more pressed down and shaken and overflowing? Who was going to receive this kind of blessing? Surely not those who would believe in Him and be His disciples.
Could Jesus have actually tried to stir up our faith to trust God for big things He calls us to do? Faith like Paul and Jan Crouch and many other ministries I know possessed when they started off with nothing– not to become rich, but to “ensure” the gospel spread throughout the earth. God just followed through with His promise of caring for them. And for that they receive much hatred from other believers. The Crouch family did not start off with a billion dollars to build a television network and ensure (make certain) that the gospel of Jesus Christ would be heard throughout the world 24/7. But because of their “faith” and the truth of Jesus words they put the kingdom of heaven first and God blessed them. And that can be said about other ministries.
What of the scripture that tells us that if we prove faithful with a little, God will give us charge of even greater things? You see there really is a God behind the Bible and He really does work with us when we believe His entire Word.
Jesus taught us not to go after money but after the kingdom of heaven and God would care for our needs. And Jesus also spoke of abundance.
But #56 did ignored those passages in order to confuse and mislead others. And to “ensure” that Paul Crouch and all ministries that are winning souls would be discredited. That is how these teachers of God’s Word work.
Anotheranonymous,
I would like to see a copy of Rose’s divorce certificate from Mario Murillo. Would you please provide a link to the site where I could see that? I haven’t been able to find a record of divorce anywhere. Thank you in advance.
trixie,
The same article that mentions the amount of money that was paid by Paul Crouch also mentions that no ministry funds were used. Sorry you missed that. 2B
Hi:
Does anyone know why Mario Murillo and Rose divorced?
Just wondering,
Thanks
well, the question was to the admin, but maybe he doesn’t know so I’ll answer. if i recall, Rose is now 44 and she apparently left Murillo in May of 2001 (according to my interpretation of a Murillo newsletter) but the divorce was final December of 2001 (according to the application for a marriage license to Carman). And no, I won’t give links. It’s public. Do your own work.
Way to go Dawn!
I might add that with more blessings come more temptations and more attacks from the enemy. That may explain why there are some who choose to stay poor and thus out of the line of fire.
I know that there are those out there that God uses mightily, but they don’t have lots of material possessions to show for it. We are all different and are reached by different methods. God created us that way. So He sends His people out to work in all walks of life.
My father is a example of this. He’s retired now, but he was a very successful stockbroker in the 80’s. When Black Monday hit, it opened up a lot of opportunities for him to not only witness to those in his office, but to his clients.
Because he was rich and successful they paid attention to what he said and did. Those who did things that were not illegal, but also not really good business practices (i.e. “churning” accounts) watched my dad to see if he would continue to be moral and ethical even when he wasn’t making money. And they saw that he stayed true to his walk with Christ. Also the down time allowed him to spend time in the Word and counsel those in his office who were struggling.
God used my dad in a place among the wealthy. People who would not have listened to him had he not been as wealthy or more wealthy than them. And because of my mom’s injuries (medical bills) and the drop in the market my parents came very close to filing bankruptcy. But God was in that too. He allowed it in order to show others that their walks never changed, that they continued to love, serve, and praise God. And that He continued to provide for them and make sure that all their needs were met.
And even as the money was going down God used them. They ended up selling our house to pay the medical bills. When my mom paid the physical therapist, to whom was owed several thousands of dollars, he was so shocked he made sure to put it in his speech at his next convention. This act of payment was a tremendous witness to that doctor and his staff.
(Patients paying their debts off is almost unheard of because most states have laws that allow the patient to get away with paying small amounts (like $1 a month) for the rest of their lives. Which means that the debts are never really paid and those people to whom the debt is owed end up not being paid for the services they rendered. Would you like it if your boss paid your salary $1 a month for the rest of your life? Sometimes the patient really doesn’t have the money, but sometimes they don’t pay because they don’t have too.)
And after several years of this existence God rebuilt them many times over what they had had before.
Now that they are retired they live in a community among people who used to be CEO of this board, President of that Co, etc. People who are getting closer to meeting God face to face. And God is still using them as witnesses. Once again, they are among a group of people who would not give them the time of day if my parents didn’t have the same status.
Unfortunately, most upper class and wealthy people won’t listen to someone who is poor or someone below their social status. Sometimes they won’t even listen unless they think you are better than they are. Then they listen because they want to know how you got what you got and how you keep it.
Rich people need Jesus too and He loves them just as much. And they are just like everybody else, you have to reach them where they live.
Amen #51. We are called to pray for one another…….not prey on one another.
I am writing today because you need to know that I was given wrong information concerning this issue of carman and rose. I was a supporter of carman ministries for over 6 years. When this came out about carman and rose getting married,I had been backslidden for about 4 months,and the only form of christianity I let in was on the carman chat. For 4 months,I was out of church,and drinking alcohol trying to stop the pain I had inside. I drank alcohol and was taking sleeping pills because I could not sleep,and I almost died in the process. Some people in my church hurt me terribly,and I stopped believing that God heard my prayers,so I gave up. In this time,no one knew I was hurting so badly because I was always the one praying and giving gifts to everyone. I unfortunatly allowed someone to speak into my life at this time who claimed to know the “facts” about carman in this issue of marriage. If I would have been spiritually sound,I would have known this person was wrong,but I was not at that time,so I was snared. I was told it was all carmans fault,and that he planned all of this,including that he dealt with rose before she was divorced. All of that I later found was not true. Carmans hands are clean in this,and all in this blog need to know that. I was away from God,so the enemy came in and sowed discord in me,and in turn,I sowed that discord amongst others. I want to say this,I feel really bad about what has happened,and I can only hope the people I care about forgive me.
Trixie
Souls are won one at a time???
Have you ever read where Paul and the other Apostles were winning them by the thousands?
What about the people in coundtries where there aren’t so many born again Christians like you who is ready to win them one at a time? Will you go? And how would you “fund” your trip and stay?
Jesus asked people like you to leave everything behind and go make disciples out of all men….
You apparently have a roof over your head…. but Jesus wanted us to remain homeless… isn’t this what you believe?
Oh and should you have a computer? Since your sinning by possessing a computer anyway, why not try showing love to that “one” soul who just may be passing by instead of trying to destroy the souls who you are touching.
I just read that there is actually a group that is trying to keep pastors from telling its congregation to go out and vote.
I already had read that ministries had been warned by the IRS they could not support any candidate financially. And now this group is trying to stop this. MTV is doing everything they can to get their viewers out to vote but we as Christians are being singled out to stop encouraging the body of believers to vote. Don’t tell me all of this with TBN is not politically motivated.
And you’re all worried about Carman’s private life…
Christians wake up and see that our faith is under attack. We should be praying and pleading with God to protect us and deliver us from our vulnerability to malicious gossip and if there is disciplining that needs taking care of let God do it… or at least put your differences aside to recognize the wolf waiting at the Church’s door.
well i guess your right if jesus had a tv station back then he would have been all over the world by now. since he was god, why didn’t he invent tv back then? we could buy and sell his videos in his words. then you don’t have to worry about hush hush money,martial status,etc. Jesus is God and he invents everything. I guess he should have done pay per view back then and we’d all be saved. no back biting, blaming jews,etc. God you should have done a daily 24/7 tv show back in 0000 AD- and then we wouldn’t have to look at a pink haired apple doll, her homo humping cowboy husband, and Mr Carman ( do something with that toupee or is it a dead rat on your head) and his wife (Rose-show me the money, me love you long time for it or until you file for a divorce)… If God is in control why do people have to beg for ministry money? Please don’t say it’s Satan, because God created everything including him/ so just who is in control of the Universe??? poor people who can’t hear the gospel? what about deaf,blind and mute people? what about human vegetables in nursing homes ( do they get cart-blanche???) / you people need to think out side the box// are you amway zombies too??
Again Dawn has put it all into perspective!
If God’s people will get out and vote (the way they believe God is leading them to vote), then their voice could not be denied.
God is in control, but we have to do as He leads us. When we sit at home and pretend it doesn’t matter, we are allowing the enemy to do what he’s here for; kill, steal, and destroy.
Thank you Dawn for posting here.
Let us pray,
Jesus we come to You in humility and love. We thank You and Praise Your Name! Jesus we just ask that Your Will be done in the US Presidential Election of 2004. We ask Holy Spirit that You will touch people’s hearts and make it clear to them if You want them to vote and how You want them to vote.
We command the angels to watch over the voting process and to stop the enemy from stealing and destroying. We pray that You will shine a light and expose all the corruption and cheating that takes place and that You will see that those who commit these crimes are exposed and prosecuted.
We pray Lord that Your Will be done. We ask that You will continue to watch over the US and continue to pour out Your blessings upon us.
Please forgive us for our sins and help us to be the nation You want us to be. Help us to come back to You fully and completely.
And Lord we just pray for those who need Your spiritual, physical, emotional, and mental healing. We pray for those trapped in sin and addiction that they would see the need to repent and rid themselves of their sin. That they would have the courage to stand up and be the people You need them to be.
We pray for the church body Lord. We pray for healing and that the enemy would be cast out of it. We pray Lord that the church will be filled of the Holy Spirit and be the church You have destined us to be.
Thank You Lord! Thank You Jesus! Praise You Jesus! Halelujah! Halelujah! Halelujah!
We pray and ask all these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Lord of ALL!!!!! AMEN!
Anonymouspc I’m sorry for all the problems you were having. I pray things are much better now. I am glad you had the courage to step up and admit to hearing the things you heard and to admit that you were wrong. That couldn’t have been easy for you. I think others have fallen into the same trap you did. And they didn’t stop to think about what they were hearing before they began spreading it to others. I pray that they too are waking up and seeing that the rumors they heard were lies. And this blog, as well as, a few other places only helped to make those rumors spread more instead of creating a search for the truth. I feel there are are few who have posted here in the past didn’t want the truth. They were people who were allowing themselves to be used by Satan as a tool to attempt to destroy a man and ministry who has done many good things for God with his ministry. I hope many have learned the lesson to search for the truth first, before the start spreading further what they think they know! And sometimes if you look, the truth was there all along… people are just too busy jumping to conclusions to see it. Let’s put this all to rest and move on to the important things. Admin Bob you could help in that. This blog has seen it’s day! Time to move on to more important things in our world and in our own lives.
Are you aware of the fact that you are yelling at me about the money thing and the only thing I did was quote Scripture? Is that wrong?
Can I make an observation? I am all for freedom of speech and everything; however, have any of the Carman supporters stopped to think that posting on this website is just really adding to the site’s popularity and interest. Just thought I would bring it to your attention. Now I can certainly understand using this opportunity to witness and present various truths from the Bible. However, in many ways much of this has been covered over and over again.
What might really be interesting is why anonymouspc changed their mind concerning this issue. Perhaps this may be more helpful than just defending the man in the manner he has been defended and perhaps it might be better than standing up to others who disagree.
I, for one, would love to hear why pc had a change of heart. Such a statement may help others who have doubts.
Again, I just thought I would bring this to your attention. I myself, really have no business reading all of this or getting into it further.
In Christ,
Trixie,
I could answer each and every one of your questions, but would you believe? Could anything I say ever change your mind?
And #76, if it “read” to you like I was yelling, it read to me like you were using the scriptures as a weapon against me. So I stood firm and I defended myself and others who are winning souls. They may not be doing it to your liking, but then read Trixie’s posting and you will see that to some not even Jesus could satisfy their system of viewing God and the message of Jesus Christ.
Were you wrong? Yes.
So what is the truth? You can shut down all the blogs and message boards you want to, that question is still going to be there. You can’t make the questions people have now about all these people go away, no matter how hard you wish them to.
Carol Anne,
How has Dawn once again put this in perspective? Isn’t she telling people the same thing she has accused this group of doing concerning the elections? She doesn’t want anyone to question about Carman’s authority. Why? Perhaps because he doesn’t have any authority that he is accountable to. Whether you agree or disagree with our admin here, he at leasts posts a link with who he is accountable to. This at least allows us to make a legitimate decision about his ministry. How can anyone make a legitimate decision about Carman’s ministry?
You guys mistakenly jump on those of us who want to see Carman act as a Godly man. Where is Carman’s link showing who he is accountable to? It seems to me that we have two choices here (maybe three). 1. Carman is a con man. 2. Carman is legitimate but has allowed others to persuade him the wrong way in the name of public relations – like the A Team who probably has good intentions but may need to rethink what they have created. 3. Carman is extremely backslidden.
Go ahead, bully us for wanting Carman to be the man God wants him to be. Who do you really think wants the best for this man? Those who enable his actions are those who are willing to speak up (in the only forum that they can find to do this); hoping and praying that Carman will listen to their words. Carman has a tremendous opportunity to take this negative situation and use it for the Lord. If he has been “had” by this lady, then perhaps he can use this to help others see how easy it is to be “had” and how important it is to listen to the Lord and not the desires of our hearts. If he was in the wrong in any manner, he can similiarly witness to others. There is always a reason that we go through things.
I would love to see someone receive a calling from God to provide an alternative to TBN and the like. Wouldn’t it be great to see a television ministry that placed an emphasis on accountability and the use an “open book” approach to the ministry?
Anon 4,
If the truth was always there, I wish the ministry would help us see it more clearly. It seems that the ministry would be more than happy to show this kind of truth, unless they are hiding something. I’m not saying they are, I’m saying that is their actions make some people think so.
Here’s an excerpt from http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2004/Sep/1072272.htm
TUSTIN, Calif. –(Business Wire)– Sept. 12, 2004 — The following is a statement from Trinity Broadcasting Network:
“In a recent article in the Los Angeles Times reporting a story that Dr. Paul Crouch, the founder and president of Trinity Broadcasting Network, was allegedly involved in a wrongful termination and sexual harassment case in 1997 is deplorable and the scandalous claims leveled against him are false. ”
“The accuser is a convicted felon and longtime drug abuser who has been imprisoned for years for serious crimes ranging from child sexual molestation to using illegal drugs such as crack cocaine. The accuser became involved with TBN through a drug rehabilitation program conducted on TBN’s property. Upon his successful completion of the program, TBN gave him a chance by offering him employment.”
When it comes to Jan’s hair and make-up, even her own son Matt in the past has wanted her to make some changes, but regardless of that he still loves and respects her. It’s obvious she loves Barbie dolls, which she has often spoken of when asking for toys for poor children. She may just have a shy side that likes to hide behind all of that.
When Jesus first started out, the world had a much smaller population in it. God has given people knowledge to invent things to make it easier to reach the multitudes. Unfortunately, there are those who will abuse technology. There’s a daily battle between good and evil.
The Bible speaks of both poverty and riches, and the bottomline is that we are not to be greedy, be generous, to put God first. One of the women who was a follower of Jesus was married to a rich man, and this enabled her to help fund Jesus’ ministry.
Pray for Carman. Do you know he could be a man after God’s own heart?
To Trixie,
You are really full of anger and hate. I am, and will continue to be, praying for you. What has God done to you that you hate Him so? You show hate when you attack those who work in His name. Since you are not God, you have no idea if they are really listening to Him or not, therefore you should not attack them. He said that on Judgment Day He will separate the goats from the sheep, but until then, they will stay in the flock.
He died for your sins, doesn’t that show you how much He loves you?
Seriously, don’t you think God knows every detail of their lives (and yours)? If He wanted them out of business, then they would be.
Christ didn’t need TV because the world at that time was pretty much centered around Jerusalem, Rome, and Greece. And just like today, word of mouth worked very quickly.
God has allowed us to gain more and more knowledge and has given us more and more knowledge because the end is near. He said every soul would hear the good news before the end, and now He’s using TV and movies to get the Word out.
I’m sorry you don’t like that. I’m very concerned that you don’t like whom or how God chooses to work.
And there is no such year as 0000 AD it’s actually 0000 ACE (After Common Era). AD didn’t start until after Christ died. Because of the over thirty year gap, historians created ACE and CE (Common Ear, what is otherwise know as BC – Before Christ) to explain the split in time. They basically took Christ out of the equation.
May God bless you and be with you. May He fill you with His Love and Forgiveness. In Jesus Name, AMEN!!
**********
To Admin:
I agree that the blog needs to end. Obviously the only posts now are those trying to destroy others. They have no point, no new discussion and no new insight on previous discussions. Therefore some of us then feel compelled to rebuttal so that their attacks are neutralized. It’s getting old very quickly. Seriously, how many people have to ask for this to end before you will do it? It’s not like you’re selling ad time based on hits, are you? (No slam intended – just askin’ a question)
Carol Anne
Carol Anne,
Thanks for your support.
To #77 and #80— Carol Anne said it best, we felt “compelled to rebuttal so that their attacks are neutralized.”
But, as Jesus taught us, there will be those that no matter what we’ve seen or what we know they will refuse to believe and there is nothing we can say to change them and this is the case here. So with that said, Carol Anne and to all those others who’ve taught me something, such as Observer and Lion for Judah, God bless you both and to the atheist, I’m pulling for you, you were passing by and taught me what it meant to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, sorry we’ve failed you…. One day perhaps I will get to meet you guys, but I think perhaps it is time to turn these people over to God.
Bye…
anotheranonymous,
I have done my own work. I wanted to see if you had found an actual divorce decree, and I see that you were going by what was on the marriage application. So, it was “confirmed by her divorce records” is incorrect. Hint: you will not find a record of divorce. I’m not saying that there isn’t one, just saying you will not find one. Remember, this case was brought based on fraud. I guess several should have paused and thought about that before letting the slings and arrows fly. Carman should hold his tongue while this case is ongoing. Glad he is, no matter how much people want to know.
Anonagain,
You need to read Observer’s posts #480 and #542 on the first blog. And you should probably read all of my posts to Mille & Raye. (From the 1st blog: #561 & #573 and from this blog: #1, #19, #46 & #51)
In regards to Dawn, she put things into perspective by pointing out that there is a bigger picture. Whatever Carman has done in his personal life pales in comparison to what is going on in our government, media, and elsewhere. Because there are those in the US who want to deny God and get rid of Christians. I don’t understand how you read into her statements that she was calling for accountability from someone. (If she did, I didn’t find that when I reread them.)
In regards to Carman, only you know what God has told you to do and not do. Only you know if your are in God’s Perfect Will or not. And because you don’t know the truth about others and what God has called them to do or not do, then you are not to be making judgments about their walk. Remember what Jesus said in Matt 7: 1-5?
Enabling someone in their sin is ignoring it and saying that they are not doing anything wrong when it is obvious that they are doing something wrong. Like saying your brother isn’t a drunk or pretending he doesn’t drink, even though he’s lying on the carpet because he’s too drunk to stand up and that’s the way you find him every night. I HAVE NOT ENABLED ANYONE IN THEIR SIN. Sorry I yelled, but I wanted to make sure you read that statement. I don’t know if Carman is right or wrong, because I’m not him or God. However, because I do have concerns about his behavior, I am praying for him and asking that he seek God’s Perfect Will for his life, even though I don’t know what that Will entails.
On this blog I’m trying to help others see that their methods of discussing his actions in a public place, making judgments without all the facts and acting like they know what God’s Perfect Will is for him, are wrong. I’m trying to help them be a better example of Christ’s love. I’m trying to get them to learn how to forgive, because if you don’t forgive you will end up being bitter and filled with hate. And I’m trying to get them to do what we are called to do when we see someone sin, PRAY!!
If you are grieved over someone else’s behavior, don’t you think God is too? Sure He is, and He’ll take care of it in His Perfect Will and Timing. I’m pretty sure He doesn’t need to consult with you and get your opinion. However, I’m also sure He would appreciate your prayers. God has and does bring judgment in public and in a person’s lifetime, but He does it without the use of blogs or anyone else’s input. Don’t you think God is big enough to deal with Carman without you publicly posting your two cents worth? Based on your post, I’d guess your answer is “no.â€
********
To Trixie,
I apologize, there is a year 0 AD however, it didn’t start until after Christ died and was risen from the dead. So what was your point? After He was risen He should have started a TV network? Oh, I know, you were just being facetious.
If you are so eager for the blog to end, stop reading it and stop posting in it.
Oh Carol Anne, you are such a die-hard fan. Someday when your eyes are open, you will be able to see Carman in his true light. He is a person who definately knows how to make a living..he is also a person who definately DOES NOT know how to make a life.
Poor guy, he keeps tripping over his ego and his need to control things. But this one just kinda slipped out of his control, what you see on this blog is “damage control” by Carman, his mother and several friends. How strange that that is obvious to just about everyone but you. Did he tell you thank you cause you were the only one helping him?
If MM hid his divorce from his partners for almost two years, then perhaps he got his divorce, not under MM, but under his mothers maiden name which many Hispanics go by. Many times they have Two last names. So to protect his image and the concern of people knowing he was on his third divorce, perhaps he divorced under his mothers maiden name or another name. Just a thought. MM finally told his partners he was divorced, so we know that they got one, the details just aren’t out there., or if they are out there evidently the name is different, so it can’t be pulled up by using the MM name. Just a thought.
If the fraud charge had anything to do with the fact that Carmans wife was still married to MM and did not get a legal divorce from him before marrying Carman , it would already by over with. The court would have ruled on that immediately, because it’s illegal. On top of that Carman is too smart to marry a woman who is married. I’m sure before he married his wife, he made sure she wasn’t still married to anybody else. He is too sharp to make that mistake.
To Donald.
I refer you to posts in the 1st blog: #407, #480 & #542 by Kalola and Observer respectfully. And there are lots of others. I am not the only one who has said that we need to pray instead of discussing this man’s private life in public and passing judgment as well.
I pray and pray and pray. I pray for you and all the others reading and participating in this blog. I pray for those we’ve discussed. And I pray over every post I put on here. Because prayer is what changes things and people, not public debate.
And the fact that I keep praying for you all, is why I’m sure God is already at work in your heart and that’s why you lash out with belittlement. If you actually had a valid argument, you wouldn’t feel the need to go after me personally, you would be able to actually debate the issues.
I have never said that Carman didn’t do anything wrong or that he is perfect. WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT WE ARE CALLED TO PRAY FOR HIM NOT JUDGE HIM AND PUBLICLY ABUSE HIM. Sorry I yelled, I wanted to make sure you read that.
WE ARE CALLED TO PRAY FOR THOSE WE SEE COMMIT SIN. I refer you to I John 5:16 & 17 “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him (the sinner) life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.â€
I also refer you to Matt 7:1-5 in which Jesus, the ultimate authority, said “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye.’ When all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.â€
And I know about some who are posting here. I’m probably as much in the loop as you are. My eyes are wide open! I’ve heard lots of gossip over the years. That doesn’t mean I believe it all, since I have not witnessed it all. And if you don’t witness it, then it’s definitely gossip and not fact. Even hearsay (gossip) is not allowed in a court of law. But you all seem to think it’s enough to publicly abuse a fellow believer. However, I take it ALL, whether I believe it or not, to the Lord in prayer, because that is what we are supposed to do!
Why can’t you let God take care of it? Do think God really needs your help? If He did need your help, He’d send you to Carman personally. God only needs and requires your prayer, not your opinion. And He certainly doesn’t want you to put your “concerns†out to the world in a blog.
If God is not honored by what you do and say, then you are probably not doing what He would have you do. Publicly abusing someone, especially a fellow believer, does not honor the name of Jesus. And it makes you look really bad and gives people a bad opinion about that body of Christ.
Thank you for this great opportunity for rebuttal.
Carol Anne,
Your words ring true of the Holy Spirit. It is evident that you pray over your posts, as I can hear the voice of Jesus in your posts. I couldn’t agree with you more. We are not called to rebuke, judge, or gossip about Carman. We are called to pray for him.
Thank you for your words Carol Anne; I beleive that they will pierce the hearts of those who have ears to hear.
Patti, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It made my day!
Carol Anne,
I think you are a “beautiful special” child of God and I have been blessed by much of what you have said. I do; however, see this situation as not just a situation between a believer against another believer. I see this as a situation where a ministry needs to be held publically accountable. Perhaps Carman’s marriage had nothing to do with the ministry, etc.; however, I think it is fair to say that the actions of the ministry can and should be held in question publically. I do not believe that there is anything in God’s word that would indicate otherwise. Accountability is an issue that cannot be ignored. It would be “wrong” for supporters and prior supporters not to hold the ministry accountable. (In fact, I believe it would be an unloving action to not hold the ministry accountable.) And yes, I believe a ministry is accountable to those that it serves. It needs to be held accountable to the Body of Christ. If this ministry was “bilking” (sorry I don’t really know how to spell that) people for money, it would be appropriate to publically expose such a thing. This situation does not appear to be that; however, I feel that it is also appropriate to expose an obvious attempt to cover up an unfortunate situation that may or may not effect God’s work. In fact, I believe an attempt to cover up such a situation is more likely to damage the ministry than the unfortunate situation that Carman and Rose are both experiencing now.
I agree that WE ARE CALLED TO PRAY FOR HIM (and the ministry and) NOT JUDGE HIM; however, I believe that we can and should publicly hold the ministry accountable.
God Bless you!
When a person’s involved with court matters, they are told not to discuss details in public. It could cause more confusion and maybe worse. So to expect details now is wrong. Don’t make it so complicated. This forum has been going in circles a long time, the same stuff rehashed. Aren’t you tired of it yet? The more important topics of our world are to do with prolife vs outrageous partial birth abortions and most abortions performed for convenience issues with too many Christians allowing them, (over 1 billion globally), our soldiers in many nations, open borders with illegal immigrants abounding, and corrupt political systems that need major changes, among many other topics.
To T:
Thank you for your feedback. It seems you read my post on the 1st blog, #573, with the rebuke form. Good job!
I agree that when a ministry has severe problems then they need to be held accountable. However, holding the ministry accountable is not what has been happening here. You don’t hold someone accountable by gossiping about them and verbally abusing them in public. In fact you are to go directly to the person/group and any of the responsible parties.
I refer you to James 4:11 – 12 “Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you – who are you to judge your neighbor?â€
And also look up James 5:9 “Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!â€
Gossip and verbal abuse are forms of grumbling and slander and certainly show that judgment is being on the part of the speaker.
And if you are going to take your concerns to someone then you need to be direct, clear, concise, and act in love. I refer you to 2 Timothy 4:2 “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction.â€
If you want to hold the ministry accountable then you need to take it to the ministry. Supporters can write letters noting their concerns. And if nothing is done, then they need to go to whomever the ministry answers to. If they still get nowhere then they can take it public via an organized statement of concern outlining what has happened and what actions have been taken and the results of those actions.
Good ways to take it public are to go to a Christian news organization or, as with a business, you can call your local (or one that is local for the organization) news station or paper and give them your statement to publish and get them to investigate. (As with anything you do, if God wants you to go public He will give you the best, most effective way to do so.)
However, the best way for supporters make a ministry publicly accountable is by cutting off the flow of money. If they express their concerns and get no response or nothing changes, then they can discontinue their support and quit buying the product.
Once you’ve expressed your concerns to the person/group it is up to them to change. If they don’t you aren’t going to make them change by talking bad about them in public (gossiping). If anything, you’re going to push them into continuing as they are. At that point you just have to forgive and forget and go on with your life. You can’t keep harping on them, but you can keep praying for them.
When you attack someone out of anger they will see it as a sign that they are doing the right thing. When you rebuke someone (take your concerns to them) in love and not anger they will react one of two ways. Either they will listen and spend time in prayer to find out if it is right and what they need to do. Or they will see your statements as an attack and refuse to listen. Those who love God and seek to be better examples of His love will react in the former. Those who focus on themselves and who don’t care about what kind of example they are or who think their walk is perfect will react in the latter.
What has been going on here are attacks, plain and simple. NO ONE here has directed any of their posts to Carman or the ministry. NO ONE here has clearly, concisely, and without malice, laid out their concerns. NO ONE here has posted, clearly, concisely, and without malice, what steps they have taken and the results of those steps which have escalated the situation to a public call for accountability. Without these things, you are not calling anyone to a public account, you are in fact gossiping, grumbling, slandering, and judging.
I pray for you as I do everyone here. Thank you for at least attempting to discuss the issues instead of just belittling my point of view. I would suggest that you review the scriptures that discuss rebuke. The steps are the same whether you are rebuking a person or an organization. (Observer’s post on the 1st blog, #480, list several of these.)
Thank You!
Carol Anne,
Again, I agree with the spirit of your post. I do not agree that no one has specifically addressed Carman or the Ministry in the posts and I am not in a position to judge the malice issue. I tend to think some individuals do have good intentions like yourself.
Again, God Bless You!
Let me explain, malice is an attempt to harm someone without just cause or reason. (And as far as I am concern we can throw out the just cause or reason part). It has to do with “intent” – which can be a dangerous thing. Sometimes you can have good intentions and just blow it. Or someone could be working through whether they should continue to support this ministry or not and appear to be speaking in malice when that is not their intent. There have been instances on this board where I can see the malice coming through loud and clear – i.e. the apparent individual that has work with or around the Hinn (dare I say) ministry. I am just not able to make a blanket statement that no one has spoken without malice.
Concerning the working through issues part, I can tell you first hand that I have worked through issues in my life and my intent was to work through the issue and not to crucify other individuals; however, sometimes our lives are too intertwined for that to happen successfully.
Someone told me a story about intent once. The story goes like this: a certain man at work received a turkey every year at work from his co-workers (probably at Thanksgiving . . . I wasn’t planning to tell the story again so I don’t remember the details). He hated turkey! This went on and on, until finally one year, his co-workers did something different. The man, without realizing this, accepted the turkey in the sack that the co-workers had given to him and then went home via the train. On the train, the man met an individual who had virtually nothing except for 50 cents. On the train the man asked this individual if he would like the turkey and the man said yes but I only have 50 cents. The man, not wanting to take this man’s dignity away, said “I tell you what, I will let you have this turkey for 50 cents.”
The deal was made and the man felt very good about his intentions and his actions. Unfortunately, the man did not realize that his co-workers had decided to pull a gag on him this year and after the man left the train and the individual looked in the sack, there was nothing but a “paper” turkey.
Sometime intentions can be good but actions don’t always show this.
(If anyone knows the story better than me . . . please save me here.)
Sorry Admin, I don’t mean to be flooding this thread.
I just wanted to mention that anger is not the same thing as malice. People can have good intentions and speak out in anger. I will say, Carol Anne, that we should follow your example and pray over our posts.
Thanks for your prayers, I certainly need them. I will keep you in my prayers also!
web reply only please admin
Well I checked back and sure enough I Just have to add that there is a lot of religious love going on here by many who must be second and third generation Christians out to show off thier religious escatological prowess .
First off Let me clarify that I do not take a stand on Carmans marraige at all except that I am dissapointed that he could fall into that kind of evil.
I know for myself I have avoided a sin over and over and felt myself to be really strong against that area then it was slipped in a new direction that I should have known but I didn’t.
I have been blindsided and very dissapointed in myself knowing that it shouldn’t have happened but I just did some things wrong that led to my own fall into temptations.
My problem with carman is how he has treated his supporters through dating and marrying this woman and with lies and misrepresentaion as well as outright lies on his website and in his actions with his supporters expanded in blog part 1 by Raye. # unknown I will check it and send it below
Christianity is a relationship in most denominations and not how much dogma you can throw out to show your glorious knowledge. some of You speak forth such supposed love and concern for the Lost by throwing out your religious shadoboxes of religiouse doctrines.
You judge those who call for right action from Carman and you condemn thier actions while you declare thier sins and wrong actions to be enormouse for they have no right to share thier feelings about the man or his ministry but have only that right to pray for him if they don’t like it .
you can condemn easily, openly and unashamedly for gossiping etc while at the same time declaring we have no right to judge any of this not the gossiper or the decievers .
YOu Do not condemn the deciever but you judge the ones who judge that as sin and call yourself holy and rightouse in so doing.
What is what is really going on here think about that . Isn’t that a little bit hypocritical ?
I don’t see any of Carmans defenders telling us what Carman is doing about these things and how sorry he is and that includes people who say they know him and some who claimed to be his family.
There is just a lot of shoving into the darkness to hide it going on . God works in the light I always thought
The decietful behavour is still going on with Carmans website no changes though there has been plenty of time to get something out there,or take something off, or give a public apology for the actions and correct them so I guess he doesn’t feel compelled to do what is right.
He has lied and still is to his supporters not to mention the deceptions about marraige in the questions of the day which many peoople have shared with us on this blog and the first part. It wouldn’t take a lot of action from Carman to change alot of things He is above it all I guess. A man unto himself.
It was reported that he knew about this blog and I do not doubt that many have tried to email him through teh question of the day so I don’t think it is ignorance I think it is purposeful disdain for right action
http://www.Carman . org his website
You say this man should only be prayed for and yes he should be and he should also be compelled to change it and as Christians we should make the statement that it is wrong while being kind enough not to get over into Gods arena of eternal judgements .
He doesn’t take my calls or emails but I can speak here with other Christians who have the same concerns that I do. I can say here to any non believer that happens in here that I am ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Chrhist but that people do mess up that is why we need Jesus so But sin cannot be tolerates whennit is found out then the sinner must choose do right.
All is forgiven once it is changed but we are not hypocrits who speak one thing hold one set of values and live another and expect the same from our leaders
I really doubt that a lot of non believers are looking up Carman Licciardello to see what is going on with the ministry .
If Carman really cares and is trying to sort out how all this happened God can lead him even here to see and take account of it privately instead of to the yes men and woimen who must have been putting into his life and the true love of God is it could turn his ministry around make his actions honorable and go on to truly exceed what has been in the past with a right spirit.
As some one else wrote he may be a man after Gods own heart Like David.
David was a mna who sinned and took responsibility for his actions and humbled himself before God and man when he was chastised of his sin which is a big part of what made David a man after Gods own heart
Carman Publicly set himself out as representing us and I don’t wnat him representing
You pat those of similar view on the back and condemn those who judge the wrong actions of a man based on Gods word and the Love of God you say you represent.
Anyone who claims to represent Christianity for the rest of us has the responsibility self proclaimed to do it honorably.
For the record the one thing the will turn off nonbelievers who would be interested in Chrisitianity at all is Hypocrisy
Just one more Christian hypocrit who preaches one thing and does another.
They may say in thier hearts he messed up but he changed it.
He did what he could to make it right. confessed it and acknowledged he was wrong.
Then his people forgave him and backed him up but they did not accept his wrong actions.
While they (Christians) were loving enough to speak truth in love demanding right actions from those who represent them they took his back when he took proper actions to do right.
We all sin and our faith is what saves us and thank God Jesus covered our sins because not one of us could save a mouse or cover our own sin even if we did what Jesus did for us.
But Faith gives us the Holy spirit to diiscern right from wrong and hypocrisy from Gods love which is very different than saying judge not lest you be judged then come here and showoff your theoloogy and how very Christian you are by how much you love
with Gods love.
You cannot judge sin but you can judge arrogantly those who say change these wrong actions to Carman. Carman apolagise -Acknowledge faults and confess and don’t ever do it again.
No one is trying to stone him here they have been pointing out good advice that will turn his wrong action around. And that is Gods love Gods love does not condon it and help it to be hushed up so it can continue to grow in the dark think about it
something happened to my post and it went through unfinished or was lost I am not sure which right now so I will simply assume it went through unfinished and write my blog clarifiacation number her . Raye post 526 first blog tells what I feel is a problem with Carman Ministrys. and expands my post either sent through unfinished or deleted I talked about above Raye
Anonymous 4:
In response to your private question, the answer is:
I really do not know.
I’m sorry that I have not responded sooner to your request.
Administrater my apologies to you for this error and following posts and thank you
My apologies to all on my last post.
I was in the middle of editing and correcting my last post when it went through but I think it says most of what it was meant to.
I am sorry for the uncorrected errors and unedited follow through.
but the meaning is there. Raye
Does anyone know what is holding up this annulment?
or the reason why?
To T:
Okay, please let me clarify……..
What I said was “without maliceâ€. I was not saying that some of those here who do not agree with me are full of malice or have a malicious intent. I wanted to make it clear that when someone is rebuking (or taking their concerns to) another person/group they need to be direct, clear, concise, and do it “without malice.†It probably would have been better to say “do it in love.â€
And as far as posts here directed to Carman or the ministry, show me one (on either blog). You can’t because there is no post on either blog that says “Dear Carman/Carman Ministries†or “To Carman/Carman Ministries, etc. If you don’t direct your post to a specific person/group, then you are not talking to that person/group, but talking about them. Thus your post goes from a statement of concern into gossip.
I’m sure there are some with good intentions. That’s part of why I’ve been posting and part of what I’ve been trying to address.
Thanks for your prayers. I like knowing I’m not the only one praying.
*****************
To Raye:
In case some of your statements were directed at me and if you think that I have been hypocritical, that is certainly not what I want to be and I apologize if that is how I have come across to you or anyone else. I live what I say.
However, I do have some points to make regarding your post.
1. Jesus didn’t just give us love, but He gave us a book to live our lives by. If you don’t spend time in the Word, then the enemy can and will lead you astray. Part of your responsibility as a believer in Jesus is to read His Word and to continually study it, learn it, and commit it to your mind, heart, and spirit. The reason this is your responsibility is because you will be held accountable by God for your actions and your words, just as we all will.
A child may not like learning, but it is necessary for them to grow mentally. Thus as children of God we must study His Word in order to grow spiritually.
2. I personally have never condemned or judged anyone for their opinions or actions. If you (or anyone else) think that that is what I have been doing, then I apologize for this as well. As believers we are not to judge or condemn anyone. My goal here is to help those that gossip and verbally abuse another in this public forum to see that they are not showing the love of Jesus by their actions. And that there are better more effective (scriptural) ways to handle their concerns.
3. I have never sought to enable, cover up, ignore, or to say that Carman is perfect or that his actions give no reason for concern or accountability.
4. It is not hypocritical to say to someone “I may agree with you that that person has committed a sin, but don’t discuss it in public because that is gossiping and God says we are not supposed to gossip.†If anything, it is helping that person you are speaking to see that their actions are in contrast to what the Word of God says. It is seeing someone potentially commit a sin and helping them to avoid it.
5. I don’t think it’s my place or anyone else’s to speak for Carman. If he wants to address someone’s charges, then let him to do it. That way it’s not hearsay (gossip).
6. You said: “All is forgiven once it is changed†So your love has conditions? Even though God makes it clear that His love, and our love is to be, unconditional. We are to forgive seventy times seven. And when we forgive we are to forget. Therefore if the same sin is committed again, we are to forgive as though it is the first time. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to wallow in your sin, just because you know you’re forgiven. Because when you do that you are actually living a life in rebellion (yet another sin) to God’s Word and Will for your life. It also doesn’t mean that there will be no consequences for your sin.
7. Some may have had the intentions to hold Carman or the ministry publicly accountable, but, no one here has posted directly to Carman or the ministry. (Please read my statement above to “Tâ€.)
8. If supporters have tried to contact the ministry and have gotten nowhere and they think they are to take it public then they should do so via an organized statement of concern outlining what has happened and what actions have been taken and the results of those actions.
Good ways to take it public are to go to a Christian news organization or, you can call your local news station or paper and give them your statement to publish. As with anything you do you should pray about your actions and if God wants you to go public He will give you the best, most effective way to do so.
The best way for supporters to make a ministry publicly accountable is by cutting off the flow of money. If they express their concerns and get no response or nothing changes, then they can discontinue their support and quit buying the product.
Once you’ve expressed your concerns to the person/group it is up to them to change. If they don’t you aren’t going to make them change by talking about them in public. If anything, you’re going to push them into continuing as they are.
When you get to the point where they won’t listen/change you just have to forgive and forget and go on with your life. You can’t keep harping on them, but you can keep praying for them.
When you take your concerns to another, in love, they will react one of two ways. Either they will listen and spend time in prayer to find out if it is right and what they need to do. Or they will see your statements as an attack and refuse to listen. Those who love God and seek to be better examples of His love will react in the former. Those who don’t care about what kind of example they are or who think their walk is better than yours will react in the latter.
9. Like it or not prayer is the most effective and sometimes the only way to get others to change. That is one of many reasons why we are called to pray for those we see sin and are not to judge (or condemn) them.
Thank you for listening.
Carol Anne,
Well I don’t believe it was posted to the exact specification that you have proposed; however, I don’t think anyone can dictate exactly how people are supposed to post. (Not that this is your intention.)
There are several examples that posted in the body of the post much like you posted to Raye. It was not posted as clearly (visually speaking) as your post though. It was more like: Carman, …………
Again, it was specific and clear as to who was being addressed.
In Christ,
Carol Anne,
Specifically, 449 would be one example but there are more I believe. Part of the problem is that people are human and are at different phases in their spiritual development. I do believe your posts are helping many in that area though.
I can’t speak for others but I can say that I have done things incorrectly and have learned from my errors. It is embarrassing but at least I did learn from it. I am sorry that Carman is having to suffer because everyone is not at a certain level of spiritual maturity; however, that is something that cannot be helped. Some people are still on milk, some people are on meat, and some people are in between.
God Bless,
Raye (#100)
Amen and Amen!
to # 104. Nothing is holding up the annulment. There will probably be no annullment because the accusations of fraud cannot be proved in or out of a court of law. One accusation was that she couldn’t have children. This woman is capable of having children. In fact my aunt was the same age when she had her son and two years later had another baby. Other accusations will also turn out to be false in the end. That is why certain people moved to Las Vegas for six weeks to get residency, on the advice of counsel, because once you are a resident, you can get a non contested divorce within two weeks. Evidently the counsel felt that the fraud issues were not strong enough themselves and gave counsel to become resident to get a quick divorce. It is very doubtful that this marriage will be wiped off the books as some would like it to be. They wanted it wiped off so it wouldn’t affect ministry and ministry partners giving to the ministry and also their personal reputation. Marriage is a covenant . I’m sticking to mine and God will honor me for it. He would have honored this man and woman for sticking with it to, but seemingly one of them didn’t want to keep covenant. We are continuing to pray.
To T:
I agree with you that some have hidden their message to him inside their posts. And I’ll give you the point that it may be because they don’t know any better.
Thanks for the feedback!
To the blog:
If a writer doesn’t direct their post to the person they are speaking to, then the writer doesn’t know who is and is not reading their post. The writer is just assuming that the person they are trying to reach is going to weed through their post and find what is meant for them. Most readers are too lazy to do that. That’s one reason why the writer has to be direct, unless they are making a blanket statement not directed to anyone in particular.
I just really can not believe how long this has all been going on! We are all sinners! None of us are perfect! We all make mistakes! The man has proved himself over and over and over for how many years? We all go through times and seasons. It’s in the bible. In those times and seasons we grow and mature in different ways. Satan knows the word of God. That’s why God warns us of this in his word. Satan’s job is to detour us from the will of God. The higher you are the harder you fall. Carman has always been truthful about alot of things going on in the ministry and sometimes in his life. His private life though should be that though. Private. I’m sure for as long as the man has talked about wanting to get married don’t you think if he knew it was right from the start he would have been shouting it from the mountain top? All the crazy woman following him around would finally leave him alone. You really think that would not make him happy? Come on! When he is ready he will talk about it. The only facts any body really has is he was married and he has filed to disolve it. So quit. the word of God is a two edged sword. Please all of you. Just stop. We have men in Iraq dying. We are only a few weeks away from an election that is so very important. There needs to be prayer going up for the saftey of the children. There is a high satanic holiday coming, halloween. they really do human sacrifices! We need to pray. Do you people have any prayer request. The word of God says we are to pray for each other. I need prayer. Pray for me. I am a sinner covered by the blood of the lamb. I need Gods strength and wisdom today and every day as never before! Do you all not know how short a time we have? How many unsaved are out there hell bound! There is no time for idol gossip and who did what or anything like this. God is on the throne. Please, let us turn our eyes upon Jesus and what God has intended for us to do. Would some one please go buy some tracks at least to hand out for halloween! Some one do something! People are dying and going to hell and here you all are!!!!!!!!!!Please. For the LOVE OF GOD!
Thank you Administrator Please forgive the strong statements in the letter it is your right to have whomever you choose here and I am not assuming any right to take this on for myself I am simply stating my opinions of what others have I believe rudely taken over this blog with.
I have no right to rebuke others here in a Christian manner I am stating my opinion period and I am not interested in any philosophical religious bloviating as Bill O’reilly puts it.
Correction on #100 Raye OOPS I can say here to any non believer that happens in here that I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ but that people do mess up that is why we need Jesus so much. But sin cannot be tolerated when it is found out then the sinner must choose do right.
It is not a habitual thing that I go online and check out Carmans website or blog posts but I did and I believe God led me to this so called gossip session some of you hate so much.
Those of you who have decided to come here and show off and \ or rebuke people that by your own admission you have no authority to rebuke !!!
At the very same time you rattle on about our coming here to talk about what is going on with Carman ministry’s you go on and on bullying others with your great bible search programs to prove that we have no right to be informed and converse on the happenings at Carman ministry’s or any other person or incident because no one gave us the authority!!
Maybe we should all stop listening to the news or any other journalistic pursuit as well because that too can be deemed gossip if the accuser choose to say it is .
May I suggest that you go start a new blog and share your views on any subject that you like and show off your great spiritual knowledge!!!!!! Go start a vote for so and so blog or you are a sinner blog that is a idea.
Do it guys as a favor This poor wretched sinning soul who just came here and commented without your permision on a blog that you didn’t start and isn’t under your authority will I swear never trouble you on your blog never !!!!
I needed to know this information for myself period no matter what some of you want to say about it or how bad you wanted to hide it and pretend that it never happened and by the way what are you doing here ?
If You didn’t need to know then what spirit brought you here?
I have had non Christians I have witnessed to on occasion (when I am invited to.)
Friends who are very mistrustful of all the Christian Hypocrits .
They have proceeded at times in discussion to take me to task on behalf of Benny Hinn for example, because (whatever it was at the time) and because of what ever he had done they claimed that my beliefs in God can’t be right because of what this man is like etc .
I don’t even think well of Benny Hinn or his theology! I am not a dead works Christian and I definitely don’t believe in the doctrine of giving to get even though I know that it is a paradox there is a key in there about forsaking not expecting to get and then God gives .
I believe that for faith God put his spirit in us and God sees us justified or just like Christ for faith alone.
Carman in faith is just as justified as I am but he still is publiclly doing things that are wrong and should be corrected. .
I am glad I know this stuff going on with Carman before some other person hits me up with it and I don’t even know what they are talking about because I have shared some of his videos and tapes with people off and on .
God Is able to reach me and even rebuke me for writing or reading this blog himself and I believe every other Christian who found this blog likewise God can handle.
So well meaning critics of this blog who ever you are …. haven’t you said enough?. You are just causing trouble here that is all you are doing. Interrupting a conversation screaming about the sinners here .
God can reach my conscience and make me know that he is displeased with me just fine I hear him well even when I have done wrong. He doesn’t need you to come here and preach.
I always want to hear him better and when he wants me to I get the message from him and I do not need help from even well meaning little preachers whom God did not send .
I am aware that some of Christianity might disagree with me in some areas and that is just fine in many areas so what !
I have no intention of battling my opinion on others nor do I intend to have others play God and listen to them batter me and \Or especially bully others with their verses picked and chosen to slam us into guilt and shame according to their own doctrines and some problem they have looking at Carman or his ministry realistically .
For the record God himself led me to Carmans ministry to begin with or I wouldn’t even know anything about it and he can certainly lead me to this blog so that I know al that I need to know even as I pray he does .
God certainly did not put me in the position to pray for individuals that they might agree with me and see things just like I do all the time and there are several ways to start your own internet ministry if you want one go get one where you can show off your bible software .
I am not on a mission. I would like to see Carman straighten it out and be the person that I always thought he was .
Now think about this what if I had recommended Carmans music for someones kids or themselves and they checked him out and they found out but I didn’t know to tell them what I felt about the website or have an answer when they used him as sign all Christians are hypocrits?
I am glad I happened onto this blog and I still stand here and say I believe that God led me to this web sight.
Don’t bother throwing out your bullets of scripture I have A BIBLE and I use it.
I bet as much as you do and maybe more as well as sitting under an annointed preacher .
This blog was for the most part just a informative blog where some of us dissapointed and shocked fellow Christians have been confronted with a new reality of what happened with Carman to our own surprize
How some of you think that it is better to hide it is beyond me and I don’t know who you are sharing with but most real unbelievers who want to put Christians in thier places are going to know every bad thing every preacher did and you better know it first.
To Carol Anne
You are definitely one of them Carol Anne you need to go read your post #19 again because some things are passed on generationally.
You have been mean and hateful to several people here and totally out of Authority while you profess tons of Christian love .
Read your post to 84 Trixie again how you accused her of being so angry and hateful and then look at what you have written to others here. you need to go read your own posts as if they were someone elses and look at yourself.
Dawn is another one who just stands out here for dominating the conversations with her brand of preaching . I have no authority to rebuke here and don’t declare that it is God talking to you it is me and I want you to back off and go do something constructive with your software.
You have certainly attacked people here with God’s book mixed with a lot of your own interpretative doctrine.. Who gave you the right to rebuke or make a rebuttal for me or millie or Donald or anyone else here because God and his word did not?
And if you are going to reply when someone addresses you in retaliation do us all a favor and stop just think about it just pray and don’t click it on through. Knock it off and leave it alone you are causing to people to sin with your anger and accusations . I will not get into a doctrinal debate here with you on forgiveness what I wrote was not in that spirit at all it was in the eyes of nonbelievers you have to not agree with wrong actions if you expect others to understand what you believe .
It is just a lot like all the Moslem terrorists who say nothing while so called extremests murder and wage Jahad you see them as pretty much the same kind of people who are out there murdering innocents without the doing the actions don’t you.
Silence in some areas is agreement.
#25 Observer You wroite this take your own advice please – As Christians we should be praying for our brothers and sisters when we see them in trouble, regardless of how it effects us or how we feel about the person. We need to be Jesus to them in their times of trouble.
Prayer is the answer to everything. Regardless of what church you’re in or what you believe or what scriptures you follow, prayer changes things.
To post #25 Observer
Please read this with yourself in mind who gave you the authority to take out your whip here? Not me !!
I wanted to have a conversation here with other Christians on a subject that someone chose to share and many others were drawn here for whatever reasons we chose to be here it is our business
Your right was to go speak your opinion just like the rest of us make your comment and move on then pray for us don’t preach to us please .
THE FOLLOWiNG WAS WRITTEN BY OBSERVER Not me # 25 observer to #16 Anonymous 4 above
Read this for yourself observer and your friends write what you want of your opinion period then go your way and have some common courtesy .
The Administrator pays for this blog did the work to start it up and keep it going just be a normal polite person and get off your soapbox we are not here for gospel according to so and so .
# 25 observer to #16 Anonymous 4
To everyone reading this blog:
Rebuke/Confrontation, or whatever you want to label it, should only be done by the leading of the Holy Spirit, not out of emotion. When God wants you to go to someone He will give you the perfect opportunity and the perfect words. Most people don’t like to be confronted and will shut down and not listen to the person confronting them. This is especially true when the person doing the confronting is not anointed by God to do so. Some people will even run the other way and do what you just confronted them about, just to spite you.
Just take your own advice please and stop bullying people here or taking authority that isn’t yours and may God bless us all for peace that will follow for all of us .
Thanks Raye
Dear Annie,
Unless you are God, you cannot say for sure that this man or any man or woman has been totally truthful about alot of things in their lives. Only God knows who is lying and who is telling the truth. We can think that they are telling the truth based on what we know, but it may not be the truth at all, but a lie.
You have to learn to separate gifts and character. Many people have gifts, but they have no character to back those gifts. The gifts of God are without repentance. The character of God comes from dying to self and working your salvation out with fear and trembling. Jimmy Swaggart had gifts and God still used him, all the while he was visiting prostitutes. Jim Bakker had gifts, all the while he was making wrong decisions and finally ended up committing adultery. GIFTS ARE NOT CHARACTER . We must pray that our leaders will rise up in the character of God more than their gifts. Because what happens is many of them get big, get exposure from the Christian world because of their gifts and then their character isn’t strong enough to hold them up there. This whole situation with marriage, annullment, divorce or whatever… Keeping covenant.. it’s all about character and has nothing to do with the persona of a famous Christian person or his personality or his giftings. This is about Godly character and keeping vows. That is it!!! And holding up the standard of holiness. Evidently, someone lost their hunger for holiness.
If this will not get annuled, then how will we know if there is a divorce and someone has filed for a Divorce.
Are you saying that the parties involved have moved to Nevada, to be able to aquire a non contested divorce?
Thanks
In response to 113Raye:
I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else. I was lead here just as you were and probably many others. I have ministered to the youth and adults for many, many years. I also have purchased merchandise of Carman’s and given it away for ministry purposes. I have given financially to his ministry over the years. I do not know the man personnally but I have met, over the years, many people who have known him on a personal level. If he was not of a tottaly upright character I would have nothing to do with his ministry! We all feel the same I am sure, that’s why every one is so shocked and upset. They feel as if he has failed them.
My point was and still is, enough has been said. Man will always fail. Sooner or later they will fail. That is why God says keep your eyes on me. We have all failed. We have all made mistakes that we have been embarassed about. It is hard. It hurts. When your out in the public like Carman…..my goodness…..the man is embarassed, heart broken his ministry was under financial attack again for the second time in his life he has to start from scratch! Just come on. Give him a chance to pick himself up and wipe off the dirt and take a breath of fresh air!
All the things that have come out of peoples hearts when you read these things are scary! From the heart the mouth speaks!
There comes a time to get on your knees and turn your utturances upward. Not what you think. God’s will. Always HIS WILL on earth as it is in heaven. Amen?
Anyone that is lead here will see all the caotic whatever you want to call it …..the will see and hear more than they will ever need to know to do what we all need to do now and that is pray.
Pray for Carman.
Father, we lift our brother Carman up to you right now Lord in the name of JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARATH…..we loose forth your wisdom and your knoweledge to him Lord as to the things that you would have him to do and the things you would have him to speak. We ask Lord that you give him the courage and strenght to do the things that you have called him to do. We come against every stronghold on this man and anything that is not of you Lord or your Holy Spirit and we loose it from him now in the name of Jesus. We bind it from ever coming near him again in Jesus name. Father we loose forth your spirit of peace, love, wisdom and joy unspeakable from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet and we speak these things for his family and those involved in his ministry also Father. We loose forth percise disernment with immidiate confirmations Father that this man would not fall prey to deceit every again in Jesus Name. Father I pray the same for all of us this day. Lord bless everyone that has come into this place in the way that they may need it the most Father. Have your way with us Father and mold us into the creations you have called us to be unto your Glory Father. And Jesus, I praise you and thank you for your blood covering all of us. How you wash us and love us and make us whole over and over again. Thank you, in Jesus Name.
Now, who will pray for the men in Iraq?
Who will pray for our President that he will have the wisdom he needs and the strength.
Who will pray for the coming election?
We need strong bold true men of God in office.
Does anyone know about what really goes on on halloween night and why we really need to pray during this whole month of October and especially on halloween?
Then who will pray?
There just are so many people that need us. I am just trying to get you to see please there are so many other things you could be doing.
It’s all been said. Please, the people out there need you. People Carman can not and will never touch. Just you. Go talk to them. Share the knowlege God has blessed you with. Share the love God has put in your heart.
A person saying Hello to a man saved his life. He did not think anyone knew he even was alive….he was going to go kill himself. But some one stopped and smiled and said hello. That was all he needed!
Go walk through the mall and just say hi to people if you are to uncomfortable to do anything else. You’d be suprised how good it will make you feel to see those faces smiling back!
This is the day that the Lord has made. I shall REJOICE and be GLAD IN IT!!!!!!
Admin….I’m soory i’m long winded….thank you…xo
Raye,
I do pray for you and everyone here. I pray that God will fill our hearts with love and forgiveness.
I have not taken out my “whip†here. What I have done is post what I have found in the scriptures. What I have learned. What God and the Holy Spirit have taught me. I have done this in order to edify and not destroy. If you don’t feel edified, then maybe what I said wasn’t for you.
By your own admission you don’t want to have a conversation, you want to gossip and that is what is wrong. This is a public website. If you want to have private discussions then you need to go to a private chat room. As long as this blog is open to the public anyone from the public can post here. And we all have the same “authority†to post here.
I’m sorry you don’t like my posts, but you don’t have to read them. If you see my name, why don’t you just skip over those posts.
It is obvious that you are not here for any gospel even the one according to Jesus Christ. You want to be a Christian but be able to act in the flesh without any consequences. If you want to do that, you probably shouldn’t do it on a public blog.
And I haven’t posted on here for some time. In fact, I had no intention of posting on here again until you addressed your post directly to me.
In the Name of Jesus Christ I pray for God to continue to speak to your heart and continue to led and guide you in His Will. Amen!
To Raye:
This is a public blog that means that I can state my opinions just as anyone else can do here. Below is my response to your post since you directed part of it to me. (I apologize for the length.)
1. You said “I am stating my opinion period and I am not interested in any philosophical religious……..â€
This is a discussion. You cannot assume that no one will question or post a rebuttal to what you state here. If you want to give your opinion with no rebuttal, then this is the wrong place to do that.
2. You also said “But sin cannot be tolerated when it is found out then the sinner must choose do right.â€
I agree, that is the main reason I have posted here.
3. You then said “Those of you who have decided to come here and show off and or rebuke people that by your own admission you have no authority to rebuke !!!â€
I never said you don’t have the authority to rebuke anyone else. What I said was there are proper Biblical steps that must be taken otherwise it is not right. And since you and others have posted on a public website you have opened the door for public correction to be brought to you. And I am not showing off, I too am stating my opinions and then giving the back-up for those opinions.
4. You then went on with “At the very same time you rattle on about our coming here to talk about what is going on with Carman ministry’s you go on and on bullying others with your great bible search programs to prove that we have no right to be informed and converse on the happenings at Carman ministry’s or any other person or incident because no one gave us the authority!!â€
No, that is not right! First of all it is not bullying someone to express my point of view in response to their point of view. As Christians we are to live our lives by the standards set forth in the Bible. No one said you couldn’t be informed about or discuss what goes on with Carman’s ministry. However, that is not what has gone on here. Most of what has been discussed here are rumors and gossip. Very little actual facts and eye witness accounts have even been stated.
5. You also said “Maybe we should all stop listening to the news or any other journalistic pursuit as well because that too can be deemed gossip if the accuser choose to say it is .â€
Well, it is true. There are times when it is gossip and rumor and not fact like it’s supposed to be. Look at what happened at CBS recently. They took a rumor and tried to make it into fact and now their integrity is in question.
6. Then you said “May I suggest that you go start a new blog and share your views on any subject that you like and show off your great spiritual knowledge!!!!!! Go start a vote for so and so blog or you are a sinner blog that is a idea.â€
If you go back and read the original statement that started this thread you will see that it was about how people post “news†as fact without posting sources. So if one person can post something that has nothing to do with the original statement, then we all can.
7. Then you said “I needed to know this information for myself period no matter what some of you want to say about it or how bad you wanted to hide it and pretend that it never happened and by the way what are you doing here ?â€
Why do you think you’re getting the truth here? You are supposed to get the truth from the source. If you can’t do that, it may not be any of your business. And if you still think it is your business, then you need to do the investigation to get the truth and not listen to gossip and rumor.
8. Then you said “If You didn’t need to know then what spirit brought you here?â€
The Holy Spirit brought me here.
9. You went on with “I have had non Christians I have witnessed to on occasion (when I am invited to.)
Friends who are very mistrustful of all the Christian Hypocrits .
They have proceeded at times in discussion to take me to task on behalf of Benny Hinn for example, because (whatever it was at the time) and because of what ever he had done they claimed that my beliefs in God can’t be right because of what this man is like etc .
I don’t even think well of Benny Hinn or his theology! I am not a dead works Christian and I definitely don’t believe in the doctrine of giving to get even though I know that it is a paradox there is a key in there about forsaking not expecting to get and then God gives .
I believe that for faith God put his spirit in us and God sees us justified or just like Christ for faith alone.â€
I agree with you.
10. You then said “Carman in faith is just as justified as I am but he still is publiclly doing things that are wrong and should be corrected.â€
Then you need to do to what you think God is calling you to do. But God is not in gossiping and rumor spreading. He has given us specific steps to help us go to our brothers in love. Some here may have had the right intentions, but most just want to “discuss†Carman, not take their concerns to him. That’s where I disagree.
11. You also said “God Is able to reach me and even rebuke me for writing or reading this blog himself and I believe every other Christian who found this blog likewise God can handle.â€
I also agree with this statement.
12. Then you continued with “So well meaning critics of this blog who ever you are …. haven’t you said enough?. You are just causing trouble here that is all you are doing. Interrupting a conversation screaming about the sinners here .â€
I am not a critic and I am not screaming. If you feel that I or anyone else are causing trouble because we are stating our opinions in opposition to yours, then it may be because you are convicted by what we are saying.
13. You also said “God can reach my conscience and make me know that he is displeased with me just fine I hear him well even when I have done wrong. He doesn’t need you to come here and preach.â€
Great! Then why do you feel the need to go on and on about someone else? I said before that we need to let it be and let God. (Build a bridge)
14. You then said “I always want to hear him better and when he wants me to I get the message from him and I do not need help from even well meaning little preachers whom God did not send .â€
Again I ask, why do you feel the need to go on and on about someone else? If God can speak to you without anyone else’s help, then why won’t you let Him work on Carman without your help? And like it or not, God did send me here.
15. Then you stated “I am aware that some of Christianity might disagree with me in some areas and that is just fine in many areas so what !â€
Okay, I agree with this.
16. Then you went on “I have no intention of battling my opinion on others nor do I intend to have others play God and listen to them batter me….â€
Any Scriptures or doctrine that I’ve stated here are my beliefs and you are free to use your own Bible to look up my quotes and do your own spiritual search for the truth. You should never take anyone’s word as the complete truth without testing it in the Spirit and Word. I encourage you do so with all the scriptures quoted on this site.
17. Then you continued with “…and Or especially bully others with their verses picked and chosen to slam us into guilt and shame according to their own doctrines…â€
I am not here to bully or cause anyone to feel quilt or shame. If you feel those things they are from the enemy and you need to take it to the Lord in prayer.
18. The you said “…and some problem they have looking at Carman or his ministry realistically .â€
I have no problem seeing Carman or the ministry realistically. I’d like to ask how do you know what the reality really is here? If it’s just from rumors and gossip from other individuals, then it may not and is probably not the truth. Sometimes even when you witness something you may not be getting the whole picture and therefor you may get the wrong impression or come to the wrong conclusion.
19. You also said “God certainly did not put me in the position to pray for individuals that they might agree with me and see things just like I do all the time and there are several ways to start your own internet ministry if you want one go get one where you can show off your bible software .â€
I pray for God to speak to all our hearts, minds, and spirits. And I pray for God’s Will to be done. I do not pray for God to get others to see things “just like I do all the time.” I pray for us to know the truth and I pray that we will follow God’s Will for our lives and that He would be honored here.
20. You then said “I am not on a mission.â€
Neither am I.
21. You went on with “I would like to see Carman straighten it out and be the person that I always thought he was .â€
I totally agree with you!
22. You then asked “Now think about this what if I had recommended Carmans music for someones kids or themselves and they checked him out and they found out but I didn’t know to tell them what I felt about the website or have an answer when they used him as sign all Christians are hypocrits?â€
Well, you could start by explaining how we are all sinners and fall short. And how we are called to forgive just as God forgives us. And that only Jesus was perfect and that is why He was the sacrifice for our sins.
23. You then said “I believe that God led me to this web sight.â€
I also agree that God led you here.
24. You then said “Don’t bother throwing out your bullets of scripture I have A BIBLE and I use it. I bet as much as you do and maybe more as well as sitting under an annointed preacher .â€
That is wonderful! I am so glad to hear it! (I’m being completely serious, no sarcasm intended.)
25. Then you said “This blog was for the most part just a informative blog where some of us dissapointed and shocked fellow Christians have been confronted with a new reality of what happened with Carman to our own surprize…â€
This blog was started as a discussion about how if people are going to post a statement on the Internet then they need to also post their sources. The original statement has nothing to do with discussing Carman, his ministry, or his actions. As a matter of fact the original statement says “Why did I blog about this? To discuss Carman or Murillo (who I have alot of respect for)? No, To discuss about marrying another man’s wife? No. In fact, those issues could be addressed in complete and seperate blog posts if desired.
I blogged about this specific incident in trying to raise up a standard in my blog posts to get to the point of if some major newsworthy event takes place (whether it’s local, national, global, or spiritual) and we want to comment on it, we need to reveal our sources either via the old bibliography standards, direct quotations, or if the content is online, directly link to it.
I am not pointing fingers at anybody within the blog / forums community. All I want to say is that we need to provide sources where applicable when we talk about content that affects the personal lives of people.â€
26. Then you said “How some of you think that it is better to hide it is beyond me..â€
No one has said it should be hidden. What we’ve said is that you don’t really know the truth and we are told in the scriptures not to gossip. Discussing what you assume the truth to be is gossip. And we are not to rebuke publicly without witnesses and without first taking it to our brother personally. And in regards to his lying to his partners, most of what has been posted here as proof has been proven as not really proof at all. And in regards to the court case, only God, Carman, and Rose know the truth because the case has not ended and their are no public records of the testimony at this time. So we definitely should not be making assumptions and gossiping about that.
27. You went on with “and I don’t know who you are sharing with but most real unbelievers who want to put Christians in thier places are going to know every bad thing every preacher did and you better know it first.â€
You don’t have to know all the “bad things†others do so that you can counter it with “real†unbelievers. You can help them by telling them that Jesus loves them so much that He died for them. Tell them that everyone in the world will one day face God and have to account for all that they do and say. Tell them that God is the judge and that He will deal with them in the best way possible, even if that is only on the Day of Judgment.
I have not been mean and hateful to anyone, at least that was not my intention. If you or anyone else feels that way then it is probably because you don’t like that I don’t agree with you. At this time this is a public blog. That means that anyone from the public can post here.
My “preaching†here is my side of this public debate. You present your way, I present mine. Why is yours any better than mine or mine any better than yours? They are just different styles.
You said “Silence in some areas is agreement.†That’s right. If I don’t agree I probably won’t stay silent. And if someone posts directly to me I will answer them.
And I do pray before I click on “Let it be heard…†each time.
I’ll keep praying for you Raye.
Thanks for this great chance to debate.
Carol Anne,
I do not believe any one has intended to hide anything in their message. If they are like me they just open their mouth and let ‘er fly. (This can be a bad thing to do especially at certain times of the month – [sorry admin]). I agree this is not always the best thing to do – which is why I love it that you pray as you post.
Raye,
Carol Anne does have a point though. Your post would have been a lot easier to read had you arranged it a little differently.
Admin,
Do you have any specific posting rules, suggestions, etc?
To Anonymouse4sure,
You seem to imply you have some inside info. So please tell us. How old is Rose? What other accusations of fraud were there? Since Carman is trying to mislead us to think he has never been married, as a partner I think this is wrong and he handled this poorly. It would have been better to say nothing than to publish things that appear to mislead. If you really know about this please tell us more. Thanx.
I just had another thought. Someone previously said they had a photo of the now famous Rose. Whoever that was, I would love to see that. I bet others would like to see it too. Even if Carman annuls or divorces this woman, she got this 48 year old bachelor further than most. I want to see who caused this supposed temporary insanity, what would cause a good Christian boy to deceive his fans like this? I hope the person with photo is still around. Do you have a website you can post it on? Admin, isn’t there some way to see that photo?
different Anon… someone already answered the question earlier about how old Rose is. She is 44. It’s not “inside” information. It’s pretty public if you look at just about any documents concerning this public stuff.
Oh, and one more thing/
this is the last thing posted on the nevada site:
10/01/2004 SECOND AMENDED COMPLAINT FOR ANNULMENT OR IN THE ALTERNATIVE A DIVORCE
Licciardello, Carman
Licciardello, Carman
SO, does this mean he’s getting whatever he can? Does this mean he doesn’t care if it’s an annulment or a divorce. That he’ll take whatever they’ll give him?
Q: Does anyone know how long he and this Rose lady dated before taking the action for marriage?
thanks,
Does anyone on here have a story that they could tell us … i.e., like if perhaps you felt that God told you that you would marry this man, CDL?
And would anyone have any tangible evidence to make the things that they felt God were telling them, be true, in relation to thinking that they would marry Carman
Also, has anyone experienced any type of spiritual warfare as it relates to this ministry, postive or negative. ???
I would be interested in knowing.
thanks,
To Annie:
Thank you so much for your wonderful prayer! I prayed allowed right along with you. Thank you so much for such a wonderful blessing.
And I’d like to pray now…
Thank You Jesus, thank You so much for loving us. Lord we just pray for Your blessings to be poured out upon Annie. We pray Lord that You will continue to lead and guide her. Please give her Your wisdom and discernment.
Lord we just pray for President Bush. We pray Lord that You will give him wisdom and direction. We pray for Your blessings to be poured out upon the USA. We pray Lord for the upcoming election. We pray that Your angels will watch over and stop any fraud. We pray that even now You will expose and stop any fraud. We pray Holy Spirit that You will touch the hearts of Your people and get them out to vote and to vote as You would direct them. We pray for Your Will to be done.
Lord we also pray for our military all over the world. We pray Lord that Your angels will protect them and keep. We pray Holy Spirit that You will lead them, that You will show them where the enemy hides. That You will give them clarity and wisdom. We pray Lord that the enemy will just surrender without even realizing what they are doing. They will lay down their weapons and turn themselves into authorities. We pray that You would give wisdom to their leaders and that You would expose the enemy.
We pray Lord that Your angels would be strengthen and renewed and that they would be victorious in their own battles.
And also Lord we pray for the children of the world. We pray Lord that Your angels will surround and protect them and keep them safe from harm. That You would give their parents wisdom and discernment. And we pray Lord Jesus that You will be with each child. That they will know You and feel Your Love. That You will be with them when they are scared and hungry. That You will pour out Your blessings upon them and provide for all of their needs.
As a body we stand against this upcoming evil holy day. We pray Lord that you will protect those who have been targeted for sacrifice. We pray Jesus that You would cover them in Your blood and that You will cover them with Your hand so that those who would do them harm cannot find them. We pray Jesus that You will expose those would cause such harm. We pray Jesus that You would bring them to justice.
We pray and ask all these things in Your Name Jesus! AMEN!!!!!!!! Thank You Jesus!!!!!
To Annie:
I have added you to my prayer list (more specifically) and I do pray for all those things you listed. Your prayer was powerful and I prayed right along with you. Praise Jesus!!!
*********************
To T:
Okay, you’re right they may not have meant to hide their concerns, they came when they came. That’s why I did post #573 on the 1st blog. I wanted to help them clear up their thoughts by giving them a form to use. I was hoping it would help them.
Thanks for helping me see a bit more clearly. (and loving Him more dearly…. sorry I just broke out into song there.) :-)
Her age is on their marriage licsence. She is 44. I don’t know the specifics of the other fraud charge. But even the lawyers knew that an annullment would be very difficult to get with these particular accusations against the woman. Because they were false and not reasons for a legal annullment. No sense in repeating things that have already been said, but if you look up in the first blog, you will find information that backs up what was said concerning someone living in Las Vegas for six weeks to get residency for a quick divorce. It’s all in the first blog
We will know if they get an annullment and or divorce by looking into the Clark County Records for the state of Nevada. You can look it up yourself in the family court system. If an annullment is granted you will see it and if a divorce was granted you will see the annullment cancelled and a divorce recorded. You need to figure out how to do it for yourself. But anyone at this time can get into these records. It is a matter of public record. The only way you would not be able to see the marriage liscense is if they get an annullment. It erases it off the books and that is why the annullment was filed by him to hopefully get the marriage erased from the records to make it appear as though they had never married. The record states that he is the one who filed for the annullment and that she contested it. Thats all public record.
To Admin my apologies for involving you on this subject my objective was to try to show some here that confrontation and argument with hypocrisy’s don’t belong here continue here and are not achieving anything here it is self serving.
You may give my E..address to( A different Anon) only for the picture or, I could resend it to you if you need me too. I did not keep your email you would have to resend it . I leave it up to you hopefully you can send it to them.
I don’t want all these self proclaimed (debaters?) trying to contact me . . thanks Raye
To Annie I do not even see a personal attack you made here upon anyone from what I can see you simply stated your opinion and made your plea for what you feel is right action in your eyes and moved on . I have no problem with what you have said at all. .
It is the harrassing and confronting people continuously after you have stated your opinion and made your plea that I find to be downright… well the sowing of discord among the brethern.
I have also made it plain that my problem with Carman is the website and the way he has lied to his partners, the things he has said and done through the whole time he was dating and marrying Rose and an incident I personally saw go down on TBN that was very unkind with Matt and Laurie Crouch one night. Paul Crouch was the one who actually had her thrown out instead of taken out with firmness but kindness and then they discussed her unkindly as well. Other witnesses of the same incident are on the blog first page.
What I have said is right there in black and white in his newsletter archives http://www.Carman.org I know what was there I looked and read what he told his partners through this time. He has not changed a thing. Go read his news letter archives for the year Look through them. January the 8th is when he got married.
See what was written on his questions of the day that others have written here through this period of time .
There is no question about what he did at all I didn’t have to lie or gues s at any part of it. Go look for yourself I would just like him to correct that.
His personal business is his own but how he handled it with his supporters was wrong and dissapointing.
Carmans letters say nothing at all about a friend or a relationship nothing and after his marraige not even a hint or minor introduction to this lady love of his life. No sign of preparing his supporters for this new element in his ministry.
I certainly am not going to debate anyone about Gods word without having a plan and Gods spirit in it for Gods purposes. I seriously think that debate over Gods word is wrong unless there is a godly purpose for it and debate here is discord to me.If you want to see it as gossip so be it you have that right.
Once that You have said your piece any more is just troublemaking confrontation and harassement
But if you like that kind of confrontation thing I have heard there are chatrooms for that. I do not have the time for this let alone a chatroom. .
I believe that there are theological debates somewhere that have nothing to do with Carman Licciardello, Mario Murillo or Rose whoever she is and would probually be a lot more challenging to you who like debate.
Most of us are not here to debate we are only here to try and sort this out for ourselves for our own understanding.
It takes two to debate and I will say only what I have to say to make my point as well as I can that is all I can do and Obviously everything has to be given in brief I don’t have hours to write here.
To T: post 100 was accidental I had not organized it and proofread it I wanted to order it differently but it went through for some reason before I edited it and fixed it.
I write them on word program and copy,paste now and I still am not a great and eloquent writer.
I wish I was a great writer but you will have to make due with what is written my apologies I also did not get what you and Carol Anne were implying in your last 3 posts in discussing my post maybe you didn’t want me too .
I am not going to fret about it. But if you think that I think that Carman comes here I don’t I have come o believe through this that he is too arrogant to care. But I do think that some of his staff does and friends though I don’t know how close they are .
Who are they I don’t know wouldn’t it be nice if they didn’t hide and just spoke what they could in truth to help us understand and got Carman to take care of the other things .
I apologize if my posts are not plain enough but time is a factor for me and I have done my best to make my points. (talk toT end )
If we choose to come here it is our right and our responsability we do not need to be confronted by certain people who love debate.
There are reasons we may choose to know what is going on and others do not have to agree or understand those reasons.
We do not have to have others O.K for it and we got thier point further harrassment is just that harrassment.
Personal confrontation and meaness is not a Christian thing in my understanding it fits in there with gossip and all the things we are being accused of or worse.
Just because we want to know what is going on does not mean we don’t pray for Carman or wish him well just as much as any of you others. But whatever our motives it is our business you have warned us and the Christian thing to do is backoff.
God places burdens on my heart to pray for many people and ministrys personally and I pray for many people and never say a word to them about it as it is between me and the Lord not for my own glory or praise.
Specifically this is not meant for Kalola and her prayers or any other praying person here sincerely and in truth and there are some I believe. Thank you for your prayers.
There is a spirit that says I”ll pray for you and it is like saying you need prayer so much …. You are soooo lost ….. My access to the Lord is so much greater than yours let me pray for you…. You need my prayers and some do all that to show greater spirituality they have and not to seek the Lord on behalf of another. .
No accusations here towards anyone here just to say you can’t always trust the words .. Just like the Apostle Paul who cast out the spirit of divination she was saying the right things in the wrong spirit.
Again…. I don’t have an accusation here I don’t know and don’t care to unmask anyone but just because some one talks a good talk or says they want to pray for you doesn’t make them sweet Godly people and I thank God that he guards me and protects me from all evil thoughts and word cursings that anyone would like to send to me in Jesus name amen
I was very clear in saying that It is not my blog and this is my opinion before all of you said it didn’t I Carol Anne?
I also have absolutely no reproach for the administrator either in how he is handling it. It is his business I just hate confrontational bullying especially slamming people with the Bible it stinks and I cannot be silent when I feel some sensitive souls have been hurt by it in the name of Christian love.
I think this has been going on specifically and I am stating so here is my evidence .
Dawn personally confronted posters just on blog 2 listed here: there are more really nasty ones to the Admin and about him and others on the first blog but I am only putting in here confrontational posts from blog 2 check it out for yourself:.
#4 Raye and others #5 Neil and others #18 Michelle #27Michelle #39Marnie #63 Ct and 56 #70 Trixie #78Trixie ct.
I agree with you on one thing Dawn I pray for the president continually as I go through my day the attacks have been so great.
I wish the Christians in this land would rise up and fight the way they are silencing our voice for the right vote and other things.
I am doing all I can do about it including trying to get people to vote and talking about Gods man as often as I can without bullying.as well as praying for him to hear Gods voice and do things right in Gods plans.on our behalf.
I fasted and prayed a great deal through the last election and I will again and according to some of my prophecy lists this next debate friday could be something that requires a great deal of prayer over our President and mr Kerry fasting and prayer over them and thier families in the next couple of days is greatly needed.
Carol Anne personally confronted other posters here in this page 2 listing only more on page 1 if you want to search them out #1 millie and Raye#19 same #45Millie #51 Raye or Millie#52 will not be decieved #84 Trixie #87 rehash of first blog millie Raye Trixie #91 Donald #96 T then the blog again #110T then on to Raye 111 the whole blog #105.T 118 Raye
Now Again I plead with you again just drop it please and move on I stated my opinion and stand up for everyone to have the same right say what you choose but don’t stick around and attack people here it is just troublemaking.
21 post out of 119 post were from you 2 people arguing with someone on this Blog from just page 2.
I do have questions that I would like to have the answers to. I wish Carman would be a really descent man and humble himself to do the right thing he hasn’t so I will get my information where I can.
If you don’t Like that bless you. Move on call it what you want to judge how you will pray for me if you are sincere and move on or post in, peace disagree in peace, and keep your peace when its called for. All your contention is not changing the truth or our minds and as you have been told many times it is only making this sight more popular to all kinds of people not helping anyone.
You wrote Carol Anne
” I never said you don’t have the authority to rebuke anyone else. What I said was there are proper Biblical steps that must be taken otherwise it is not right. And since you and others have posted on a public website you have opened the door for public correction to be brought to you. And I am not showing off, I too am stating my opinions and then giving the back-up for those opinions”.
Please go back and check out your own posts it is very clearly there and I am out of time here.
I think I stated it is not my blog the administrator pays the bills here and has the say I would have cut you off after your first couple of harrassments .
To listen to you Carol Anne and Dawn once or twice as Christians we can look past your rudeness but when it comes to a point where every few posts are your confrontation with another poster it is too much especially since you started patting each other on the back for the good job you are doing.
I was also very clear that I am a Christian and my relationship with him is secure so don’t bother with the accusations guilt and the shame tactics and remember these things are not very Christian and I will not stoop to replying to your posts period .
Fellow posters will have to make thier own judgements from what they have to read what they think about your posts and mine .
I am too busy to do this often so I hope some of the rest of you will stand up and ask them to stop also and ask them to be respectful, polite, and courteous by having a conversation not a confrontation.
I have already confronted what I feel to be the wrong spirit so hopefully it will stop but it does need prayer and thanks for your prayers and for your tolerating my own contention in confronting this my apologies for your haveing to feel the contentions of this confrontation Raye
I am also sorry these post are so long I hate long posts too
I am reminded that we reap what we sow. That is what the Bible says. When you speak in this blog the things that you do not have all the facts for,you are setting yourselves up. These are seeds that will produce a harvest of lies in your own life,it is opening a door for others to lie about you. When you deal with people in a way that is not by the word of God,the only seed you are sowing is one that is cultivated by the enemy of your soul. I know there is free speech,and its your choice to live the way you want to. But remember, when you have done it unto the leist of them ,you have done it to Jesus. You are tossing aside mercy,and forgiveness and those are things that you cannot afford to lose.
I have a story I would like to share with all of you. Thirteen years ago this young woman was surfing the channels on the television and ran across this program that caught her attention. She stopped and watched this man talk about his best friend. He spoke with such love and devotion that she couldn’t move. He was speaking about God. She had never heard anyone speak about God in that way. This person invited her to meet this man named Jesus. It changed her life forever. That person was Carman. The young woman was me. So, I will forever hold a special place in my heart for Carman for being faithful to his calling. If anyone knows Carman, please tell him thank you. He is deeply loved by many and has ANGELS WATCHING over him.
I totally agree. Anon 33 — And when you accuse someone of fraud and make up lies about them, for your own purposes and talk about them and slander them and even devise evil schemes to harm them……. to save your reputation and your business and your ministry or whatever you are trying to save, even if its your own skin………… you will also reap what you sow.
Read Psalms 7 These are people who think up evil and plan trouble and tell lies. They dig a hole to trap others, but they will fall into it themselves. They will get themselves into trouble, the violence they cause will hurt only themselves.
To 125 anonymous
I am not here to gossip about Carman: He is a precious soul created by the Almighty Father, but nonetheless, ensnared. He needs deliverance.
I have been interceding for Carman for about 15 years. parts of his life have crossed many parts of mine.
I believe he has been used up by a system that will not let him walk. I have often times prayed with other groups called specifically to pray for him.
Yeah, there is a huge battle around the man. * I * Do not believe he is a Satanist but I believe there are strong seducing spirits sent around him. Soul power is very strong and then there are people who pray amiss, and participate in what is known as “charismatic†witchcraft. Then there are handlers.
There is mind control, witchcraft and just plain old worldliness.
Although I have been a praise and worship leader, I was lead to throw away his best of champion cd.
I won’t question his salvation for that is through Jesus, however I believe his soul is bound and defiled.
I have not seen the preciousness of the Holy Spirit in his eyes and countenance for a very long time.
Obviously he has very bad advisors.
God didn’t bring us to this world to use us and throw us away. Our identity gets so wrapped up in performance, religionism, numbers etc, we lose our soul.
I think Carman is surrounded by a lot of selfish people including his family.
Multiply that by millions of believers in the same boat..
I understand a lot of women feel that Carman is somehow going to marry him.
There needs to be a lot of fasting and warfare for him including many in the body of Christ.
I do see help for him, but it is out of Babylon, to the wilderness, and then I see the Lord using him with songs of brokenness, that will go over into the secular world.
The Shepard leaves the 99 and goes after the one.
I have a lot to say to him but I know I would never get the opportunity.
I was lead here. I am not happy about that as I have so many battles that are so much more important.
I wish all of you would leave Babylon and come out here where OUR God is doing awesome things.
The harvest is great and the Lord is sending us even into the pit of hell to deliver people.
Please have mercy and compassion which moves you to save those who are bound, and don’t know it.
Even your very enemies, God will use you to save them.
God bless you, may his will be done in heaven and in earth.
BAD Business practices
http://www.directmag.com/mag/marketing_direct_listline_709/
Carman Ministries
More than 1.2 million names are available on the Carman Ministries donors and buyers list. Carman Ministries is a nonprofit religious organization that promotes conservative Christian values. People on this list typically are evangelistic, missions-minded and patriotic. They have attended a concert or purchased gospel recordings on CD from the Web site Carman.org. The average sale is $40. The Web site encourages visitors to donate money to the organization regularly. Each month the first 100 donors receive postage-paid “surprise†gifts. Donors who give $1,000 or more receive a plaque. Phone numbers for 686,881 records can be rented for an additional $20/M.
Selections: Dollar amount of purchase, income, state/SCF/ZIP
Price: $70/M
Contact: Response Unlimited, 540-943-6721
Challenged Credit
I don’t know if Carman understands how hurtful this is to his supporters.
I found this 6 months ago and yes turned it in to a discernment ministry.
For one thing who or what will get a hold of our e-mail addresses?
There is an issue of privacy and protection.
Is it a ministry or is it a business?
Who the heck is advising this man?
This is why I give directly to the needy myself.
Please stop crossing the line!!
Tx
Apparently Admin did not want to put my last post on because I numbered and listed personal attack posts by two posters on this blog. Or it did not go through and was lost either way I don’t have the time to do it again.
I will refrain from using the names of the two people I feel are causing discord in case Admin thought it was out of line.
I am just going to say again that my point is that making trouble (sowing discord) harassing people about their posts is just as bad (if you read your bible) as it is to gossip judging etc.
That is also not handling the situation in a biblical way no matter how spiritual you think you are.
It is not just innocent debate it is another way of sinning and God does not have different levels of sin where some count more and others less does he?
Just because someone says is going to pray do mean that it is in the right spirit remember Paul the apostle had to cast to the devil out of the girl who was saying he was the man of God. Some of you need to really discern spirits here.
You can also say that I will pray for you because whew!! You really need my prayers!!.. I am so much more spiritual than you!! ….isn’t that all just PRIDE …and your coming here to argue over whether people have the right to be here showing off you spirituality …HUM pride hypocrisy and probably many others that I don’t have the time to look up could be added in here that are sins as well.
I have come here and tried to tell people who are not acting like Christians by harassing people to please stop it.
It is hypocritical these people have that right to make the choice for themselves
Kalola and a few others who has come and prayed or said their piece without confrontation and accusation and them
Left has done it biblically right.
Only those who have kept their debate as you call it to themselves have done what is truly the right thing to do here like it or not. Including me!!!
As for me I hate the bible being thrown at others it is wrong! God didn’t make it for that and I am not debating here period! I think it is discord period.
Hypocrite
(n.) One who plays a part; especially, one who, for the purpose of winning approbation of favor, puts on a fair outside seeming; one who feigns to be other and better than he is; a false pretender to virtue or piety; one who simulates virtue or piety.
The hypocrite’s hope shall perish. –Job viii. 13.
The attacks that have gone on here by Bible thumping Christians are what fires me what is that solving either?
Beyond that I have said what I have said about why I am disappointed in Carman and right or wrong it is my responsibility. I have nothing new to say.
The same apply’s to others here I could in love try to talk them but debate and arguing and throwing out verses of Gods word is not speaking in love.
TO ANNIE NO What I said was meant for you. You came here and you did what you felt was right and you prayed and I believe your spirit is sincere.
You did not bully harass and confront anyone or tell them what they have to do to be Christians according to you over and over.
That is what my problem is many have said what they feel and that is great it is a public blog everyone has been warned.
But you have no Christian right or responsibility to do any more and certainly over and over harass people with the bible.
Unless it is praying sincerely and anonymously as kalola has it only needs to be said once by any one person or it is hammering a point isn’t it?
To carry it further is abusive and just as bad as anything anyone else is doing coming to this blog and I believe worse.
This blog would be over if it were not for those who come here to bash other people who post here that would be the
End nothing left to see people could know the fact period and go about their business. Thanks Raye
TO T: If you are talking about post #100 I was writing first draft and it accidentally went through on me.
I usually check and rewrite it at least a couple of time taking things out and rewriting things but it went through on me while I was writing my first draft.
I write on my word program now and copy and paste it over.
I am not a great writer I am sorry. I have done my best to explain what I am trying to say.
I apologize that I couldn’t make it easier to understand.
I will also say you and Carol Anne have posts that are totally indiscernible talking about other posters that I don’t understand.
I think you want to keep it that way so I am not going to fret over it but I will say that if you think that I think that Carman comes here you are wrong.
I do think he has staff that comes here to check it out and mock it with their friends.
In that maybe Carman will get wisdom to turn it around but I doubt it.
Thanks for listening Raye and my apologies for not being able to be more eloquent and understandable to the whole post I really tried to explain but failed.
Anonymous4sure,
Thank you for your reply. The reason I asked you if you had inside info is because in message 109 you said “one accusation was that she could not have children.” This statement made it sound as though you personally knew what was going on in this annulment case, although you did not say who made this accusation. Perhaps I misunderstood. So if someone else made this accusation and not Carmen and/or his attorney, then it must mean that is just speculation and not known as a fact, right? Sorry I was confused as to whether this statement was someone’s speculation or something someone actually knew about the case. I have been reading this blog for months and I have known about Blackstones website all along. The latest being that Rose has submitted an “answer to the second amended complaint for anulment or in the alterative a divorce.” But I was not sure about her age because I’m not about to pay for a copy of the license, and I missed that on here somehow. If anyone lives in Vegas they might actually be able to go in a view videotapes on the case, as I saw this was an available option, though I don’t know if it is available for this specific case. I live a long ways from there and I don’t care that much, but I guess seeing him try to mislead his partners just makes me want to know the truth all the more.
The most obvious thing here is that those who are making comments of accusation,and lies,are not christians. They are people who are not only angry at God,but angry at anyone who represents Jesus. I am sure you know that what comes around,goes around. Even if you do not read the Bible,that is obvious enough. I wonder if Carman would get a lot of anger if he were a harley rider. What if he were shooting a basketball making millions of dollars a year. Maybe if he was playing football and spent his time blessing no one. Would you still try to hurt him? I see grown men in the billboard charts who are doing things that are disgusting at best,…and no one trashes them. Why the desire to come after this man? I think you know the legal system,he is not able to talk about this to anyone,period. There are so many people who are really hurting others,and for you to try to trash a guy because he actually is trying to help others is not cool. I have one for you. start reading your labels and try to figure out what the chemicals are that your food contains. Do you think those are added for your health? not likely. Why not stand up against the makers of some food companies. Why not stand up against ciggarette makers who are snaring children by the thousands every day,giving them a life of cancer and addiction. Look at what you are drinking. Phosphoric acid causes you to excrete calcium out of your bones every time you drink it,so every time you drink a soda,you are losing the very thing your bones,muscles,and nerves need to function properly. why not go after the makers of this soda? what do you think that stuff is doing to your children? There are so many ugly things happening in this world,and there are those who are trying to help. None of us are perfect,we all fall down. If you look at the world we live in,there are plenty of people who are out to hurt you. Carman is not one of them.
Raye,
I didn’t mean to critize your writing. Now I feel terrible. No one has to be more eloquent and understandable. It’s just that the cut and paste thing makes your posts difficult to read. I am just suggesting that maybe a few grammatical and spelling errors would be easier to read than the cut and paste thing but I am not the “posting” police. I was just agreeing with Carol Anne concerning her statements. I will also agree that my posting may not always be “perfectly” clear and welcome any suggestions as I welcomed Carol Anne’s suggestions.
Actually, I would prefer it if Carman did not come here to read all of this. You have no big disagreement here either.
God Bless,
To: 133
You have much insight, discernment and wisdom.
Bless you,
Raye,
For the record, I do agree with you about many, many things. The truth of the matter is that it is very unlikely that any two of us will agree with each other on everything. I can’t think of one married couple that agrees completely on everything for that matter so why would we agree 100% with each other. I don’t pray publically like Kalola and Annie for my own personal reasons – I have a similar belief about giving money. (And this is not a slam against Kaola or Annie.) I believe I am called as a closet prayer warrier. And God hears our prayers regardless.
To everyone else,
I’m just curious how many previous “chatters” continue to be “chatters?” My question does not have any evil intent, I just am interested in knowing exactly how this situation has actually effected the ministry in this way. I am also curious if anyone has received any response from the ministry to “any” question that they have asked regarding this situation or similiarly any comment regarding disappointment regarding this situation.
TXRose,
There is much of what you said that I agree with and other comments that I would be careful about stating; however, as stated to Raye, it is very unlikely that any two of us will agree completely on everything. Regardless, of witchcraft, etc. Carman needs to make his own decisions and let God lead him. It is my guess that this is what many of us (regardless of our differences in views) are praying for this man.
To Anonymous,
God has never told me that I am going to marry Carman so I really don’t have much of a story to tell you. I will say, if I were to think that I heard such a statement, I would have to suspect that it would have originated by one of those seducing spirits.
Have I felt spiritual warfare surrounding this ministry, yes. Particularly, with the current situation, I believe that most of us have experienced this.
Raye thanks so much for being clear and to the point in restating your opinions and your evidence. Your post was a bit easier to read as well.
But I do have a rebuttal (it may seem confrontational, but this is a discussion which means there is debate which means I can post a rebuttal to your statements, just as you can to mine. That’s the way a discussion works).
And in all seriousness I am so glad to hear about your prayer and fasting for the election. And on your efforts to encourage others to rise up and vote. That is wonderful!
Just as you felt it necessary to post that you are praying and fasting I too felt it necessary to post about my praying. Not to boast, but to illuminate. I realize that only if you know me can you believe me, that is one reason why verifiable evidence is needed so as to make an informed decision about someone or an event.
Obviously you donate to the ministry or you wouldn’t be able to go in and look at the old questions of the day. I cannot check this out, because I do not donate to his ministry. However, Anonymous 4 (#235) who does, said that all that stuff was done before he was ever married. I don’t know if either statement is true because I cannot do the research to prove either way. But Anon 4 seems credible.
I don’t know why they would rerun them except that they may not have that many “questions of the dayâ€. And I agree that they were in poor taste, just as the incident on TBN was in poor taste. I saw that too. I know my mom (and many of my friends) would have called me to account if I said something like that on TV (or anywhere else). I’m surprised Jan and Nancy didn’t drag those two back onto the set the next day by their ears to apologize. But it shows that he’s just as imperfect as the rest of us.
You said “I certainly am not going to debate anyone about Gods word without having a plan and Gods spirit in it for Gods purposes. I seriously think that debate over Gods word is wrong unless there is a godly purpose for it and debate here is discord to me.If you want to see it as gossip so be it you have that right.â€
God’s Word is not gossip. Discussing another person’s life without even knowing all the facts, without that person even being involved in the discussion and especially in public is gossip. (Kalola posted the definition of gossip in her post on the 1st blog #407.)
Discussion (in Webster’s) is defined as 1. Consideration of a question in open and usu. informal debate 2. A formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing.
And Webster’s defines Discuss as 1. Dispel (is defined as to drive away by or as if by scattering: dissipate, syn. Scatter) 2.a. To investigate by reasoning or argument b. To present in detail for examination or consideration c. To talk about 3. Declare (is defined as 1. To make know formally, officially, or explicitly 2. To make clear 3. To make evident: show 4. To state emphatically : affirm 5. To make a full statement of 6.a.to announce in a card game b. Meld {to declare or announce for a score in a card game esp. By placing face up on the table} 7.to make payable as a verb 1. To make a declaration 2. To avow one’s opinion or support) syn. Discuss, argue, debate mean to discourse about in order to reach conclusions or to convince. Discuss implies a sifting of possibilities esp. By presenting considerations pro AND con. Argue implies the offering of reasons or evidence in support of convictions already held. Debate suggests formal or public argument between opposing parties, it may also apply to deliberation with oneself.
You and others have called your posts just a discussion and not gossip. And yet you are upset that others have joined your discussion and have posted conflicting views. Why? If you read the definitions above in order to have a discussion you have to have identified issues and both pro and con (for and against) points of view presented. And then there is back and forth presentation of evidence and discussion of statements and evidence.
In fact you just said “Once that You have said your piece any more is just troublemaking confrontation and harassement.â€
This is not the right attitude to have in a discussion. I think what you are looking for is an opinion page where no rebuttal is allowed. That is not the nature of a blog.
You also said “Most of us are not here to debate we are only here to try and sort this out for ourselves for our own understanding.â€
I agree with this, however this is something that should be done in private between you and God, not in public.
And T and I were not necessarily discussing you specifically or being mean to each other or harassing each other or any of the other things you said. We were discussing some of the posts in general. It’s called debate. And T made some good points and did help me to see things in a different way. So discussion and debate work.
And as far as Donald, he confronted me first. I just rebutted him. As far as you, Millie, and all the others, I posted my personal opinions in regards to the statements you all made. That is what you do in a discussion. It is not harassment or meanness or anything else.
Your question to me “I was very clear in saying that It is not my blog and this is my opinion before all of you said it didn’t I Carol Anne?â€
What are you talking about? I never said that this is your blog or that it wasn’t your right to post your opinion. What I said was I do not agree with your opinion and then I stated why and gave my evidence to back up my statement. That is called a discussion which is what you have said this blog is supposed to be.
In all Christian love and seriousness if you feel harassed then you probably should not read this blog any more. Michele felt the need to leave because she too felt she was being pushed from both sides. And she and Observer had some good discussions. I don’t think she left because of Observer, but because of what others said to and about her.
I do think there are some posts on here that are mean, but some actually want to discuss the issues and not the man. There was a lot of that on the 1st blog. Then those who just wanted to gossip got upset and started making those unsubstantiated rumors and gossip posts and also started belittling those that did not agree with them. This was out of frustration on their part because they could not support their point of view and those who disagreed with them could.
If you can’t support your point of view don’t get mad at me. Do the work to support your opinion.
And I pray and stand in agreement with you about the election. And I will continue to pray for you personally and not in mean spirited way. In fact I pray that God pours His Love out upon you. I pray that He will lead you and guide you in all that you do and that you will follow Him and His Perfect Will for your life. I pray that He will pour a spirit of forgiveness out upon you and fill your heart with His unconditional love. I pray that you will continue to glorify His name and spread the Good News to those that are lost in darkness. Thank You Jesus! I pray and ask all these things in Your Name Jesus! AMEN!!!!!!!!
To TXrose:
I too have been praying for him for about the same length of time and I am in agreement with you on much of what you stated. We don’t need to discuss anymore, we need to pray!
Jesus we just pray and ask in Your Name that you will pour yourself out upon Carman and his ministry. We pray Lord Jesus that you will fill his heart with your love abundantly.
Jesus we just bind the evil spirits around him that are at work to kill, steal, and destroy. We bind them and cast them out in the name of Jesus Christ. We pray for you to cover Carman and his ministry and to pour out a Spirit of Holiness upon him.
We pray Lord that you will make your perfect will known to Carman and that he will have the courage to follow it regardless of what others advise him to do or say. And regardless of what others might think or believe about him.
Please help him to be renewed in You O’Lord. Help him to accept that You love him so much that you have made a perfect plan for his life. Help him to accept your Will and to go where and how you lead him. Help him to understand that because you love him and because of who you are that you know what is best for him. Help him to trust you and to walk in the spirit and not the flesh.
Help him and all of us to think and pray before we speak and act. And help him to accept the responsibilities that you have given him. Help him to be a better steward of all that you have given him.
We just pray Lord that you will send Christian people of wisdom and strength to surround him and advise him to help him draw nearer to you. People who will be iron to his iron who will help to sharpen him again. People who will not be intimidated or tempted. People who will allow the Holy Spirit to work through them.
We just pray and ask all these things in your name Jesus. Thank you Jesus for your loving sacrifice. Thank you for loving us so much and for caring about us right down to the number of hairs on our heads. Thank you Jesus! Thank you Jesus! Hallelujah! Amen!
Okay Okay okay…
There is so much fighting on this board. There are so many statements that I can’t keep up.
To all who are defending carman:
“What does it profit a man to gain the whole world yet lose his soul”.
” as a man thinks in his heart so he is.”
Whatever you believe about God, the system you are in, is how you judge yourself and consequently others.
For example, the ideal of God being in big numbers, or lots of money, or how much looks matter as far as worth. That is destructive.
If you get your identity, value and worth from what you look like, touching what you consider the famous, or performance, that is contrary to the word of God.
Sometimes people get their identity so wrapped up in “ministry” and performance,
they lose their life, and peace and joy.
Galations states that it is for freedoms sake that you were set free.
For all my brothers and sisters in the Lord, not just Carman, God is not a system of thinking or performance.
Church is not where you go, it is WHO YOU ARE: Ekklesia.
Why does this concern me?
Because I am one of those people who have had to pick up so many of my brothers and sisters who were wrecked by false doctrines and systems and pastors.
I am one of them and my ex husband liek carman, was so bound by the system, and corruption that his soul is lost forever. He never got to know Jesus for who he is nor did not bother.
Secondly, we are to have no idols. None. Not politicians, not evangelists, no one.
We should know our heavenly father as the all in all.
God will be sure that our idols fall so we can get our eyes and hearts on Him, for He is the only one who can save us in these days.
Third, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the upmost of selfishness to give your money to someone else in lieu of ministering yourself.
I am one person, the least of the least in this world and His kingdom, yet my Lord has used to me to touch thousands of lives, be in the highest of battles, and impact my world. NO CHARGE. So what excuse is there of anyone who calls themselves a believer, yet is not reaching out to their family, neighbors, community and so forth.???
I know becuase I am one of those who have been there for 20 years and wondering and praying for the laborers of the harvest. The world knows too that you aren’t coming.
If you aren’t who you should be, or Carman isn’t then, what hope is there really?
This isn’t right or fair at all. So all of you need restoration and to be free and to be out here.
The harvest is out here. The world thinks the ” church” is worse than them.
They won’t be coming to your churches and concerts. They said so.
It looks like God is shaking things up. I hope so. Change is good.
Also as far as “REPUTATIONS ” Go. Our Lord Jesus had NO REPUTATION, so why should we? He allowed me to lose mine and told me…that I didn’t need one. and He was right.
We are called to join in the fellowship of His sufferings..wondering why I don’t see that.
All the systems of this world are being judged and shaken including the religious ones.
Get out of the boat and get into Jesus, before it is too late.
Ipray this for carman, and all of you. You are needed out here.
Tx rose
PERSONAL:
ADMIN:
I would like to see a copy of that picture of Rose, if you get, please send to email address or whatever method you decide.
thanks
I was thinking today about the seeds being sowed in this blog. A lot of you are assuming that you will never be in the spotlight,and that your life will never be an open book for someone else to read. If you have a pocket full of apple seeds,and you put them in the ground,eventually you will get an apple tree that produces apples. The seeds you are planting,will bring a harvest. With lying,angry,and unforgiveness seeds,you cannot literally see these things as seeds,because its sown in the spirit. Its like air we breathe,you cannot see it,but its there just the same. The principal for sowing and reaping works,and the seeds you are planting,are the ones you will get a harvest on. If you lie about someone,that seed produces lies against you. If you sow unforgiveness,it produces unforgiveness against you. I am telling you these things because you may not have thought about this too much. Remember,when you sow seeds of bitterness,lies,anger,and unforgiveness,you are setting your future up to have others do the same to you. An example is saying lies about Carman concerning this marriage,or his personal life. As you do that,you have set into place a seed that will produce the same thing in your own life. The only way out of this,is to repent. The world we live in is hard enough without sowing seeds against your future. I am saying this in love,some of you are not realizing what the enemy of your soul is doing to you. He is setting you up so that you will sow the wrong seeds so that your future will be filled with his tornment.
Carol Anne,
You said:
“And T and I were not necessarily discussing you specifically or being mean to each other or harassing each other or any of the other things you said. We were discussing some of the posts in general. It’s called debate. And T made some good points and did help me to see things in a different way. So discussion and debate work.”
Amen! And Carol Anne helped me see things in a different way too.
Folks, none of us are God and God is working on ALL of us.
God Bless,
To all:
Can I ask a question? It may seem silly to all of you; however, it is a legitimate question for me anyway. Do you gals really feel that God would tell you that you are going to be someone’s wife? I’m not just talking Carman here, I’m talking any man. I have witnessed on several ocassions women saying that God had told them that they were going to be someone’s wife (i.e. Carlson Pierson) only to be devastated later when he married someone else.
Now God uses the Bible to speak to me 99.9% of the time. I would like to hear him speak out loud and in a manner that I could be sure that it was him; however, this has only happened on one ocassion that I can think of in my life. Now maybe I am just a bad listener; however, I am thinking maybe all that I really need to hear from God is in the Bible. The one time that I believed that I heard from God was at a moment that there was eminent danger ahead and I had no way of knowing about this had I not heard from Him. It was crystal clear. I cannot tell you if I just heard it in my conscience or out loud. The effect was the same either way. It allowed me to make the necessary adjustments that were needed for safety.
My thought is why would God tell you that you were going to marry a specific person that you might not really even know and or would not be involved with until a future date? If God can place in your heart the feeling that you don’t need to marry this person or that person because someone else maybe the one for you later, isn’t that enough? Why would he want a woman to know the name of her future spouse before His appointed time?
I am also thinking that if God felt that he needed to speak to a child of His to make this known so that His will would be done, wouldn’t it be more likely that God would tell the man? It is the man that He has instructed to cleave to the woman, not vice versa. I would think it would then be the woman’s decision to discern whether or not this was God’s will for her life.
Now I say this in love and do not intend to hurt or discourage anyone who feels like God has spoken to them in this manner. At the same time, I hate to see women hurt when someone marries another person and all along they thought they were to marry this person.
I am just suggesting that women are easy targets for such deceiving spirits (where ever they originate). And felt led to bring it up as a discussion. I do not want to start and argument; however, if you would like to debate this issue or just give your opinions, I would love to hear them.
God Bless,
To Txrose,
As a fellow prayer warrior I’d like to address a few of the statements in your last post (#143).
Although there was some truth in what you stated, your posts would have been more effective by not discussing Carman and his issues. I say this not because I want them hidden, but because you just added to the gossip. What God has revealed to you He may not want others to know, simply because they may not know how to handle it. It could also just be for you and your prayer life, to help you be a more effective prayer warrior for Carman.
I am upset that other Christians are gossiping and verbally abusing a fellow believer, regardless of who the person is or what they have done or not done.
And just because we’re “in here†doesn’t mean we’re not “out there†as well. As well ANON33’s #144 post on this blog is a great example of the work being done “in here.†He/she gave a simple truth that applies to all of us.
Also I am not “fighting†with anyone. I am debating and discussing. That may seem like semantics, but there is a difference. (For one thing I’m not mad at anyone.) The last couple of exchanges I’ve had with Raye have been primarily focused on helping her to understand that this is a public blog and that discussion is open to all points of view.
I know that Carman, just like all of us, will have to answer for every decision he makes and that what he does is between him and God. We are called to pray and to let God work in him.
Every Christian should be praying and seeking God’s Perfect Will for them because you only find trouble when you don’t listen to and follow God.
This is to 2B regarding your post #86
(sorry this is so late, but I don’t come here on a regular basis)
If you are still reading this, 2B, the answer is NO, I am not “incorrect”. I have seen all documents that I listed in post #58. Your speculations are absurd.
Well, I just got caught up on reading this blog, then I went to the Nevada site to see what was happening and see that the dude is now going for a divorce (guess he’ll be “free” on the 20th)
I’ll be interested in seeing what Carman’s biblical justification will be… based on the Nevada record, he won’t be able to tell folks that she abandoned him since the records clearly show that she fought the annulment of her marriage.
T, I will answer this one. To God,being married is a covanent. Its a spiritual document that he created to connect a man and a woman together. There are so many reasons that men and women look at a person and say,wow,I heard God about him,or her,and that is supposed to be my mate. Most of the time its an act of the flesh,not an act of God. If you are saying to yourself that a person should love you as you are,without you having to change,then you are basically looking for a lie. I do not believe God speaks to many people about a mate. Even if God did speak to people about this,the flesh would drown out every word God said. For some reason,the christians are becomming the highest rate for divorce. So of these people,how many of them claimed to “hear from God” about this person. This may sound cold,but if you do not know who you are as a person,you will never find the right mate because you do not know who you are inside. When you are 20 things look a lot different then when you are 40. At 60,things change,and at 80,what matters is that your feet are warm,you are not hungry,and the house is secure. I guess what I am saying is that if you are looking at a man or woman for their appearance,take a picture now,as their looks will not last. If you see a man or woman and think,…we could change the world by giving the world a picture of Jesus,and by showing the world how much Jesus loves them,…then you are on the right track. Its still is about giving and taking,but the goal that stands highest in any marriage is the cause of Christ. Nothing else matters. If you see a person and think,wow,the sex would be great,or the friends you have would look up to you for having this person,or that their financial status would increase you,……that is not God. Looking at a person thinking they have a nice house or car,if they have social status,or maybe they say the right thing all the time,……that is not a spiritual attribute,and God does not give that kind of direction. If you both want to reach out to the world to show them the love of Jesus,…….that is something that God gives attention to.
BLACKSTONE UPDATE:
An uncontested divorce hearing is set for 10/20/04 at 8:30. Apparently Carman has lost his bid to get an annulment and pretend this marriage never happened!
To T:
(When I say “women†I mean “most women†and when I say “men†I mean “most men.â€)
(1.) I think you’re right, women are more open to deceiving spirits. I also think this openness is so that we can be more effective prayer warriors. We can see things and interpret people’s actions in a way men cannot. We read between the lines, men look at the lines. Men are more direct and to the point, women will hint. We have to be open in order to be nurturers.
(Example) In Genesis we can see the snake using this openness to talk Eve into sinning.
(2.) And women are much more prone to be manipulators because of this way of seeing things.
(3.) I also think this is one reason why wives are told to submit to their husbands. Submission takes a lot of effort and often means swallowing your pride and keeping your mouth shut when you just want to scream because the person driving is going the wrong way. Of course submission also means allowing someone else to be in control of your life and trusting that person.
Husbands though are told to love their wives. Well that seems pretty easy. Yeah, it’s easy for women because we’re more emotionally open and find it much easier to fall in love (Just watch The Bachelor. There’s always one girl at the first meeting who’s sure the guy is “the one†and they had a “special connection.†If they told the guy those things they’d be the first to be asked to leave.) Love for guys is more difficult because loves means you have to trust, you have to be vulnerable, and you risk getting hurt or looking like a fool.
(4.) My point is that I think that God talks to a lot of women because we’re more open to that type of communication. But we have a responsibility to check it and make sure that we are truly hearing the voice of the Lord.
(Example) I know His voice. I know when He’s talking to me. It’s not an audible it’s more of a thought but it’s tied to my heart. It’s hard to explain, but I know it’s God. Ever since I can remember God (the Holy Spirit) has been talking to me and directing me. We have full blown conversations and I have been known to debate with Him. (I know that’s hard to believe. I mean me debating, as if..)
He’s told me things over the years that I’ve thought “Yeah that’ll happen right about the time I win the lottery.†And then you know what, its happened just as He said it would.
So now when He tells me something that I have a hard time believing I pray and pray. And I check it with His word. Usually if it’s something big He’ll even give me specific scriptures that confirm what He’s telling me. And He’s even used the prophets at church to confirm. And He’ll do all kinds of little things as confirmations. Basically He gives me lots of stuff to back up what He tells me. Lots of signs so that I can’t say, “You didn’t tell me that.†Or “You never really made it clear so I wasn’t sure it was You.â€
(5.) Even with all the signs at some point you have to trust Him and take the step of faith to believe it’s His voice you’re hearing.
(Example) I’ve come to those points too. Points where God has said “You either believe what I say and do what I’m telling you or you’re in rebellion.â€
Of course God has never told me to do something that went against His word. And I think sometimes He tells us to do stuff not for what we accomplish but for what we learn along the way.
(6.) As far as God telling the man first, I don’t think that is necessarily true. Mainly I believe this because men are known for being more action oriented and women for being more analysis oriented. God may tell a woman something ahead so that she can pray and intercede for it. And He may hold off on telling the man until it’s closer to a point of action. Or until the man is ready to hear it. Because God may have to convince the man (and possibly the woman too) of what He’s saying.
I believe that God tells you things when you need to know them. Maybe the woman needs to know now so that she can pray more effectively. Or maybe the man needs to know now so that he will go in the right direction and not be led astray. Or maybe you need to know now so that you will have hope and direction. (Jerimiah 29:11)
(7.) Most women are attracted to power. So men in power always have women around them trying to hook them. The men don’t have to do anything. The women just come. I’m sure they’re sent by the enemy and I’m sure some think they are doing the right thing or following God.
(Conclusion) Everyone has to learn how God “talks” to them. Everyone is different so He’s going to “talk” to us in the best way for each of us to understand. Prayer is the best way to find direction in this area. Once you know His voice, then you have to listen and follow His Perfect Will for your life. Prayer is also the key to doing this.
151:
The information has been confirmed for “UNCONTESTED DIVORCE” on 10/20/04 with poth parties receiving the copies of the documents on 10/5/04.
Anon 33 and Carol Anne,
Thank you for your responses. I thought about this subject when the anonymous poster asked for stories, etc. I have to lean more toward the position Anon 33 stated; however, Carol Anne gave a more convincing rebuttal than I have heard from this standpoint before.
Carol Anne, I will add that I too argue with my conscience; however, I never have really thought of this as being God. I do agree that God can and does put thoughts in our minds. I have always thought that I have good intuition concerning certain things. Now when I say intuition, I am not talking about some hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. To me intuition is the ability to take in various facts and activities around you and come to a conclusion (or educated guess) concerning what is going on. I would tend to think women have better intuition than men.
Now where I get confused is sometimes it is hard to identify the various facts, etc. that are going on so it is hard to understand why a conclusion is formed. I just see it as intuition and go with it. For instance, one time, I went to lunch at a restaurant and parked the car but then got this strange feeling that I didn’t need to be there. Perhaps that was God speaking to me; however, I thought that there was something that I couldn’t put my finger on that made me feel this way. I just sat there blankly for a while trying to figure it out; however, in the end, I heeded this feeling and went somewhere else. Perhaps I was listening to God but it wasn’t audible so I decided it was intuition.
This happens to me a lot though. It is kind of like having eyes in the back of your head or something.
I do agree that it may not be a gender thing. God talks to us when it is appropriate. I still would think it would be very rare that God would specifically name an individual though. If our spirit is open to God all that we really need from Him is the hope as you mentioned in your scripture, not the details. And I think an individual could also pray and prepare without knowing such details. On the otherhand, I agree men do tend to take action quickly and it would probably be hard for the man to hear from God on this until it was time. Unless of course God had a good reason for doing this (and I suspect that if God did it – he would have a good reason to do it.)
Why do I feel like a dog chasing my tail in that last comment.
Thanks, I enjoyed hearing your perspectives on this. I am concerned for any that may have been mislead by seducing spirits. I believe it is many of these same spirits that try to interfere with this ministry.
Follow-up to T:
I thought I’d share the following with you (and everyone else). Hopefully it will help.
I used to think that when God thought it was time for me to marry He would just “pick one†and bring us together some way. I thought this because when I was little God told me that He had a plan for my life. He told me that I had to graduate high school, then graduate college and then marriage, in that order.
So far my life has followed God’s plan. Looking back I think God told me this so that I wouldn’t get distracted in high school and college. I realized this as I watched my friends trying to balance dating/marriage and studies.
When I was in high school I had a friend who kept telling me that if I believed God had marriage in store for me (which I did) then I should trust that He already had someone chosen to fill that spot and that I should be praying for that man. Because if God’s got a plan, He’s got it down to the fine details.
She kept hounding me and I’m sure praying for me. During my freshman year of college the Holy Spirit started working on me as well. They both kept encouraging me to pray for this mystery man. Finally the Lord asked me “What does it hurt if you just pray for him? Just do it in faith.â€
I asked what I should pray for since I don’t know him. The Lord said I should pray for the things he’ll need to live with me. I started with patience and a sense of humor.
So as silly as it felt I started praying for “my husband.†After a few months I realized that the prayer was starting to fill the void of no dating in my life. I didn’t need to date because I already knew that the guys at my school were probably not “the one.â€
I then began to ask God for specific information. But God kept saying “That is on a need to know basis and right now you don’t need to know.†Finally I asked God what He wanted me to know about this man. I asked for Him to tell me something that would help me be a better prayer warrior for him.
So the Lord told me how many years we are apart in age. This was great because I could focus in on what things he would need in his daily life. Also it made it clear to me that “my husband†was not there at school either.
Well, it’s been over 18 years since all this started and I’m still single. I don’t know why God hasn’t brought us together, but I continue to pray and make sure that I don’t miss God. I keep making sure that I don’t walk past the “right one†because I’m too busy waiting on “the one.â€
I continue to remember the scripture that God gave me way back when, Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know the plans I have for you. Plans to prosper you and not harm. Plans to give you hope and a future.†God has also made it clear that my job, whether I am married or not, is to pray for whomever is “my husband†. So I keep on praying.
I don’t know if this man knows about me. But I’m sure that I’m right where God wants me to be and that I’m doing what He wants me to do. I try to keep my eyes focused on Him and all the blessings in my life. That way I don’t get caught up in focusing on what’s missing or making assumptions about whom God has chosen for me.
So God doesn’t have to give you details (like a name) about someone in order for you to pray for them. And sometimes prayer is a benefit for you as much as or more than the person who’s the focus of your prayer. You also have to be careful about reading “the signs.†You have to test them and check and make sure it’s the Lord’s leading and not your own wishful thinking.
Yes. Now we know this… this woman did not commit fraud. She evidently was capable of having children and this must have been verified through a doctor and she did not lie and say that she could have children, when she couldn’t…
By the way.. they only lived together a few months. Many couples try for years before they get pregnant, so that accusation was very weak to say the least. who knows maybe the reason she didn’t get pregnant in a few weeks had nothing to do with her, but with Carman himself….
And the other accusation concerning her not telling Carman about her ex husband and her realtionship with her ex husband… well who in the world tells their mate everything about their ex anyway??? And that is not a valid or legal reason for an annullment.
That is why from the beginning Carmans lawyer must have advised him to get legal residency in Vegas so that he could get a quick divorce, knowing that the grounds for annullment being granted were not there from the beginning. So much for the great lawyer who has never lost an annullment case. She lost the case because there was no case.. for annullment…. This residency thing was mentioned in the first blog and it was denied by the Carman camp, saying that he was just there visiting and interviewing people, but the truth now has been revealed. Not only was he there to do gospel business. He was there to take care of His personal business… a DIVORCE. I’m sure Carman did everything he could to get this woman into getting an anullment, but she would not budge. She wanted to keep the marriage because evidently she loved him… she obviously married him because she loved him.
Praise God for truth being revealed. Now Carman will have to answer to God and to his partners for his choices and his decisions on this matter. He can’t say he was never married anymore. He can’t pretend. If he does, then… well… he will be lying.—Again She is obviously giving Carman what he wants.. OUT OF THE MARRIAGE COVENANT.
I have some friends who know her personally and I know this for a fact, she did not ask for ONE DIME except for partial help with her lawyer fees. Because she wouldn’t have had any lawyers fees if he hadn’t wanted an annullment and or a divorce. She wanted to stay married.. So much for the money grubber charge… Sorry… let God be the truth, and every man a liar. Let God arise and His enemies be scattered in Jesus name.
Thanks for the info, Anonymouse,
It certainly seems there was no fraud since that charge did not fly in court. The question is why would he want to get rid of her? Why would he be so adamant about getting an annulment and now a divorce? I find it hard to believe this woman would give him grounds for a scriptural divorce within just a few months. It seems very cold-hearted on Carman’s part. What could be so bad about her to make him act so badly? It just doesn’t make sense. It’s almost as though he never loved her at all, and just married her when he was thinking with his you-know-what (men are famous for thinking with that male part of their anatomy and unfortunately Christian men succumb to this too). Augh!
If a person misleads or lies to a person about very important things before the marriage, and if the person lied to knew in advance what the truth was, they would never have married that person, that is grounds for fraud.
Why assume that it was because they said she couldn’t have children. Maybe she could and maybe she couldn’t and didn’t tell the whole story. I don’t know. How do you know it was checked out enough beforehand? Maybe it was assumed by trust that things were okay and mutually agreed upon when that wasn’t the case.
It could be that she said she wanted them beforehand and changed her mind afterwards, and maybe refused to get it checked out further. That can be grounds for leaving a marriage if you go back to Adam and Eve who were told by God to multiply.
That is an important part of marriage, and in my church if a person is not open to the possibility of conceiving children, it is not a valid marriage. That does not mean that a sterile person can’t get married, but they have to be truthful about that beforehand, so both people can decide in advance what to do. And more people should be open to adopting if they can’t conceive, because children are literally dying to be adopted in this world.
First of all this will be my one and only post. I will not rebuttal or respond.
It’s time for some real truth to be posted.
For those who spill out the intimate details and yet you are not one of the parties or attorneys involved, how can you know what is really the truth?
You can’t and if you then make assumptions and parade them around as truth then you are not worth listening to about anything. It’s make everything you say seem suspect.
I don’t care who you know or what you’ve heard. Because if you didn’t witness it then it’s gossip and not worth anything.
The things you hear on here are most likely not the truth and with no proof they are no better than rumors.
Even if you hear something from one of the parties it is gossip unless there is proof.
If you’d like to give us some proof to back up your accusations and assumptions, maybe then some of us would start listening to what you have to say.
The only way any of us will ever know what was meant by “Fraud†is if we are allowed to read all the court documents. I have a feeling that’s not going to happen.
And just because they are not getting an annulment doesn’t mean it would not have been granted. It could be that Carman is tired of all of this and finally decided to go ahead with a divorce instead of struggling with the annulment.
Again, we won’t know the “truth†until the court documents are released to the public.
It was “assumed†by some that he wanted an annulment so that he could “…say he was never married…..â€
You don’t know if that is the “truth†or not because you are not God so you can’t know what’s in anyone else’s heart or mind.
And to those of you who are lifting up a person who has had two previous divorces you need to do some thinking.
This past history shows that she has a lot of issues herself and is not totally blameless here.
Here’s my reasoning… if you get divorced once because your spouse was mean or whatever, fine. But if you get into another marriage and it’s the same as or similar to the first, now you’ve got a problem. Because the only common dominator in the two marriages is you. So this should tell you that if you decide to get into a third marriage you’d better make sure (via counseling, prayer, etc.) that it is really the right thing to do, the thing that God wants you to do. You have to look at the third one objectively and not emotionally, because obviously your emotions have led you astray the first two times.
This is when feedback from your friends and family can help you make the best decision. Sometimes they can see things about yourself and about the other person that you cannot see.
I do not feel sorry for either party here.
They both chose to go into this marriage.
They both have to take 50% of the fault.
Neither party is more or less guilty than the other.
Unless you are God you won’t ever know what really happened in that marriage and you need to be very careful about making assumptions and accusations about what is really the “truth.”
We will be able to see Carman’s true character displayed by the way he handles the outcome of this event with his partners.
Those who make assumptions & accusations might want to ask God what He would have you do, because you, just like the rest of us, will have to answer for everything you say and do in your life.
And finally… how would you feel if some well meaning brother or sister in Christ started verbally abusing one of your children in the guise of “revealing the truthâ€, “concern†or some other “spiritual†reasoning? You probably wouldn’t like it. And a good parent would defend their child against that person, even if what their child did was wrong. Because it’s the parent’s job to dole out punishment and instruct the child in the way they should go, not a fellow believer. God is our parent and we are His children. We only have to answer to Him.
When you bash on a fellow believer you are no better than the enemy we fight each day.
It’s God’s job to weed out the goats, not ours.
And no this is not bashing this is love.
I love you enough that I’ve tried to point out the real truth here.
May love and forgiveness fill our hearts so that we can be a light in the darkness.
I think you all need to get on your knees and ask The Lord Jesus to forgive you all for spreading false rumors about Carman being married I don’t think Carman would lie about a serious thing like marries. I belive Carman when he say he is still single. now come on there are more the one Carman Domenic Licciardello in the world
I want to say this,as it is important. too many people postone living,while waiting for tommorrow. This blog is done. I have seen a great trend in some in here,…starting a new conversation in here to keep the anger going. The devil is trying hard to keep anger brewing against others via this blog. wake up.
That’s right Anonymous4sure! Carman is a legend in his own mind. Have you ever known him to be anything but the victim in any difficult circumstance in life? He did not have grounds for annulment and now he has to face his supporters and tell the truth. But when they hear the truth it will sound nothing at all like the real truth. Carman will protray himself has a helpless victim of this misguided evil woman. It’s his mantra.
Grow up Carman, accept responsibility for your part in all of this, you are not blameless and people are starting to wise up.
re post 160 noname:
noname, get a grip. We now have things like Social Security numbers, addresses, birthdates, parent names, etc to identify us. I have seen all of the above. Sorry chickie… it’s your very own sweet “carman” who is in the center of all this mess.
I don’t mean to be cruel, but you need to grow up.
OK,
(Carol Anne, sister, you’re going to have to keep me in check here. OK?) Can we get real about all the baby, conception stuff here. You know maybe I am wrong but we are not living in Old Testament times when women are treated like property are we? Now women still have to face some challenges and I’ll get to that later.
First, what about marrying for love? Who knows if a woman (or a man for that matter) will be able to concieve because God could change that in a second and for that matter people just get old? I know I haven’t tried to get pregnant recently, as I am sure others haven’t who are posting here. Just because a women gets visited every month doesn’t mean that she can and/or will get pregnant. That comes from the Lord (with a little help of course). I can tell you this, I would hope some one would marry me for love and not for whether I could have a child or not. Now I would agree that the individuals should agree whether or not they wanted children or not; however, the fact is, they have little control over that – that is the Lord’s doing. (And I cannot believe someone would even suggest getting checked by a doctor to see if they could have a child. If a man asked me to do that , I would tell him to hit the road Jack – I’m more than a baby making machine!)
I don’t want to get into the rumor mill but wanted to speak on how silly the above thought was. As disappointed as I may be over this whole situation. I don’t think Carman would be the type of individual that would “give up” so very quickly. And didn’t the rumor mill say that SHE left him?
There is more to this folks and it isn’t really our business; even if Carman needs to be upfront to his partners without revealing too many details.
Oh yea, now that I have defended Carman, I also want to defend Rose. I am sorry, the common denominator may be Rose and it may not be Rose. Look at the abuse statistics. Abusers are out there and they often prey on a certain personality type. Who is to say that she doesn’t have this personality type? I am not saying that this woman “smells like a rose” – I am just saying that it is a possibility. I’ve known lots of good people that have gotten “unlucky” more than once. All you can do is try to stick it out, turn it over to God and try to make it work. However, abuse is different, there is a point you have to get out of the way for your own safety.
I can speak of an individual that had to “get out of the way” in one marriage; however, in another marriage when she encountered a similar situation (this time directed at her child) she had to put her foot down and make the husband realize that this was an issue that was going to have to change. If it didn’t, she and the child would be gone. God can work with some individuals and others will not let Him work with them. Her first husband was a lost cause; however, the second husband, a Christian man, realized that he had a problem and has been working to address the issue.
So, unless you have walked in either Carman or Rose’s shoes, be careful to speculate too much about their actions.
God Bless,
Millie & Anonymous4sure (and all those that rejoice with them),
You two and the others like you are truly sad sad people. You are rejoicing over the fall of a fellow believer. What kind of Christian love is that? It’s not! It’s pure evil from the pit of hell. Your last posts were not ones showing “concern†or telling the “truthâ€, they were pure rejoicing. Ugh! If you are friends of Rose (as you would lead us to believe) I can see why Carman didn’t want to stay with her. (Yes, your friends do reflect on you.)
I’m not going to argue with you over these issues. I just wanted to remind you that your actions do not reflect the actions of Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. I’m sure glad that my Jesus forgives and loves me enough to die for my sins. From your posts you have portrayed yourselves to be people who would just let me rot in hell and throw a party to celebrate.
Regardless of what you think of Carman personally he’s still a brother in Christ and deserves our love and forgiveness just as Jesus loves and forgives us everyday.
It hurts when we feel betrayed by someone, but that doesn’t give us a license to rejoice when that person who let us down falls. In fact the Bible (oh no I’m going to reference the Bible here, hold on…) warns us that we are not to rejoice over the fall of others be they friend or foe. (I won’t bore you with the scripture references since you probably won’t look them up anyway.)
You two just went to the top of my prayer list. You need to know the love of Jesus and the healing power of forgiveness.
As a matter of fact….
Jesus I just thank You for all that You have done. Lord I lift up Millie, Anonymous4sure, and all those people who rejoice with them. Jesus please pour out Your Love upon them. Fill them with Your Love. Help them to know true forgiveness, Your forgiveness. Please heal their broken hearts Lord. Help them to turn their hurts over to You. Jesus we just pray and ask these things in Your Name.
Lord we also lift up Carman and Rose. We pray Lord that You will pour out healing upon them. Help them to forgive. Help them to turn their hurts over to You. Help them to seek Your Perfect Will for their lives. Help them to humble themselves before you and become the people of God that you have destined them to become.
Thank you Jesus so much for loving us and forgiving us. Help us Lord to be better examples of You. Help us to be light in this dark world. Help us to love with the love of Jesus Christ. Help us to forgive as we have been forgiven. We pray and ask all these things in Your Name Jesus. Praise You Jesus! AMEN!!
For those of you who feel I am harrassing you by using the Bible you are not going to like this—-
One person said that we will be able to learn Carman’s true character in how he further handle’s this situation, the same could be said about all of you who have posted here. What do your posts reveal about your character? Do they reveal a Christian or something completely void of Christ-likeness?
Some of you believe that being outraged by Carman’s perceived wrong-doing is proof of your Christ-likeness— but shouldn’t it be love? Wait, I cannot bring in the issue of love because I am harrassing too many people. So what does this say about their character when they refuse to apply what God’s word describes love is?
We were told this rule in how to live with each other, “Do unto others as you would have them do to you.” Which we understand means “treat others as you would want to be treated.” I cannot believe any of you would want people treating you as you have Carman. Would any of you really want people prying into your private life and then gloating about how they have your private information such as you social security number and having a good laugh at your expense. In the very beginning I tried to demonstrate this with the admin. private details and he and others did not like that at all.
And I don’t know of anyone who has ever gone through a divorce, or for that matter, a marriage, who has ever enjoyed having people publicly gossip about their lives. Who would enjoy others using their “own” experience to lay blame to you? Just how many angry ex-wives have come on here and applied “all” their ex’s misdeeds to Carman? How did one vulgar person’s reasoning go? Carman’s a man ain’t he and all men are alike, aren’t they? One word— Jesus.
When the religious leaders dragged out the woman to be stoned, Jesus said it was perfectly all right to judge her if one among them was without sin. Those horrible men who would one day crucify Jesus possessed more conscience than any of you do because they heeded Jesus words that day and backed down and turned and walked away.
Many of you like the admin. are doing this because you are tired of our “leaders” doing wrong and you want to hold them accountable. My question is who is going to hold the congregation accountable for their wickedness— for their wrongs done to others they attend church with and worship with? Some of you claim you have gone to church with Carman or his family and so you came here to give what ever “priviledged” knowledge you possessed from attending church with him or his family. So instead of worshipping God on Sunday, you were watching Carman and his family for any wrong move. Who wants to go to church with people like you?
I have been just as badly hurt and suffered due to those out in the congregation as by some leaders. And it looks as if the majority of the people here would be the congregation, so what I say is true– who wants to sit next to any of you in church? Who could ever trust you with their private hurts and failures? Could anyone ever trust you not to betray them as you have Carman and with such pleasure? And as for those pastors who have come here and posted such remarks against Carman— even gossip, how could any person want to attend a church these “pastors” are over?
I know only a few here may understand what I have written, but there is always a chance that there are those just passing by who might be encouraged by my words.
To Lurker (just in case you are still lurking around here):
Thank you for your post #159. The real truth should always be welcome.
***************
To Observer:
Your post #165 sure hit the spot. Thank You for telling it like it is. I was going to post a rebuttal until I saw your post. It said it all!
++++++++++++++
To T:
Your post #164 was great. I totally agree.
And in regards to your post #154. I think intuition can be the leading of the Holy Spirit. And sometimes I do have conversations with myself (even out loud). I do that to analyze things and often God will give me answers or help me see things more clearly. It’s great!
Thanks for talking with me. (I do have to say I was a little disappointed to find out you were female. I was kind of hoping God was working on introducing me to “the one†for me. Hahahaha :-) Hey I try to keep my eyes and ears open. I don’t want to miss him because I don’t have a lot of time to waste here. My parents aren’t getting any younger. Hahahahaha :-) And knowing you’re female would not have changed any of my posts.)
Carol Anne,
Thanks for your followup!
To all of you in cyberspace, hello. How are you all doing? I have something to say because not many of you really acknowledge what truth really is. This is for those
that proclaim to know all. Listen to yourselves if you can hear what the spirit of God is saying to the churches in these last days. Since many of you have no spiritual ears (not to those that have experienced what true love is all about in Christ Jesus) to hear with
and no spiritual eyes to see with by God’s precious Holy Spirit, you make great error in
prejudging others. There is no such thing as a perfect human being. Jesus is the only
one that is perfect in all. The Lord’s church is for sinners in need. Welcome everyone.
If you are not a sinner then you need to return to your own planet. Jesus came here
for all sinners and to give us life in him. We need to give God praise for the blood of
Jesus that takes away sin. When I read these post, I listen to see if we are blessing
our brother or cursing him with our words. Are we speaking death or life into our own lives??? What are you speaking? What you speak is what you get! By this I mean you
do reap what you are now sowing and doing in this life. Now since I am here I’m going
to explain why Carman has an attorney to void out this marriage. This is the fact, and
the only reason I’m posting this is because the truth sets you free. Carman didn’t have
to leave the 99 and go looking for the wolf in sheep clothing, no. God has made it very clear in his word, if your spouse leaves you for another man (affair) you have the right to go on with your life. Rose walked away from him and she left him for another man.
Rose had a choice and now she must live with it. So now you all can go on with your
own lives and be set free also.
The facts are the facts. He knew he couldn´t get an annullment because there were no grounds for annullment. —he just wanted it off the books……. and so he lived in vegas to get a quick divorce.
Rose wanted to have children and wanted a life with Carman and a happy home. She wanted to give him what he had desired for years. A family and if he will really search his heart. He knows that that is the truth.
People who are still taking up for him are sick. Get a grip and live in the real world. People are human and they make mistakes. And so much for blaming her. He knew she had been married two times before and he still chose to marry her. He knew her for 14 or 15 years. After all those years and she even lived with his sister in law and his mother for a season. And you all still want to say that he didn´t know her —– That just doesn´t cut it with people who are whole. People who are sick and are the victims and want to blame everything on everyone else. That is who these folks are. But those who want to take personal responsibility for thier stuff understand the truth and the truth has set us free. We take responsibility for our actions. He married a woman who had been married twice. He knew it ….
Carman won´t even tell his partners he has been married. He won´t take responsibility for his actions. He knew what he was doing when he did it. He just got scared when he thought he might lose his ministry cause people found out he married a woman who had been married to MM and also to another man before that. Isn´t it sad after all those years of waiting on God… to get married and then he makes this choice.. thats no ones fault, except his for his choice.
But you all seem to forget that everytime, you try to take up for him. Let Carman take up for himself. He is the one who chose to marry and he is the one who chose to get out of it, not his wife.
Oh yes. And I agree if a person lies to a person and says that i will love you the rest of your life and I will marry you. Leave your current life and get rid of all the things from your past. Give away your stuff and lets start a new life together forgetting the past. Cause we want to start a whole new life together. Then you marry them and they don´t keep their comitment. That is certainly and surely fraud. And that is just what Carman
committed FRAUD.
Yes and this blog can go on for years. Those who are one on side will remain there and the others will remain on the other side. But God is on the side of the righteous. And God is on the side of truth. And God is on the side of covenant keeping people. Thats God´s side.
Sandy,
No one wants to argue or discuss whether Carman (or Rose for that matter) were wrong or not. There are probably two sides to this story with the possibility that two individuals are wrong in one way or another. Thank goodness, God has mercy on us and sent His son to die for our sins, our mistakes, our bad actions that may infact include fraud!
I am not happy with the way Carman has handled this situation (sorry Dawn – even if he wants it to be private – he and his ministry cannot be viewed as complete and separate entities). You can’t decide to call your organization a ministry when it is convenient for you and you can’t decide to be called an evangelist when it is convenient for you. You have to take the good with the bad and you have to face up to issues when unpleasant things happen. People respect that and God has given His children the capacity to forgive. I would love to see Carman address this publically particularly as it is ending. I believe that he owes this to his supporters and I believe they will be merciful with him. I also believe with all of my heart that this would be the right thing for him to do.
A lesson to take from Sandy’s post though is to be very careful when a man asks you to leave your life behind and marry him. (I know this will sound awful Carol Anne; however, it makes me think that there is some merit to a prenuptial agreement.) I think it is important to make sure that you can at least go back to what you left behind in case the guy divorces you – no one wants to be on the streets. (Not saying that this is the case here.)
Hey, I know this is probably gossip; however, I keep hearing accusations that Rose did not want this. Is it not true that she left him? Either side can answer. Don’t tell me that I am getting involved in gossip because it is too late for that. I just really want to hear the answer.
Carol Anne,
:0) Did ya think I was “Mr. T” (it is all I can do to remember to put jewelry on in the morning – wished I would have never gotten my ears pierced to begin with)! Thank you but I am sure you can do much better than me! :0)
Dawn (and Carman if he is lurking too):
Ya know I totally agree with you on the do unto others thing (I know that I should have followed this in the past but I have made mistakes). This reminds me of one question of the day that has bothered me (and I say this constructively and in love – really I do – do misread my intentions) – there is one question of the day that says something about I deal with people in the same manner that they deal with me. Hey, we all do that at sometime or another. I am just suggesting that the ministry or Carman go back and review that answer because it could be a great opportunity to teach what the Bible says on this. I mean you can admit that you do this at times; however, the Bible says that we should . . .
But I agree on a lot of what you said Dawn.
Sandy,
Perhaps you want to clarify if you are Carman’s sister- in-law or not because you are giving out some details in your post and people are probably going to assume that you are. If you are not, I believe you should state that you are not.
Mark,
Thank you for answering my question. I wish I knew if you actually knew this or not . . . but oh well.
I was thinking today about the seeds being sowed in this blog. A lot of you are assuming that you will never be in the spotlight,and that your life will never be an open book for someone else to read. If you have a pocket full of apple seeds,and you put them in the ground,eventually you will get an apple tree that produces apples. The seeds you are planting,will bring a harvest. With lying,angry,and unforgiveness seeds,you cannot literally see these things as seeds,because its sown in the spirit. Its like air we breathe,you cannot see it,but its there just the same. The principal for sowing and reaping works,and the seeds you are planting,are the ones you will get a harvest on. If you lie about someone,that seed produces lies against you. If you sow unforgiveness,it produces unforgiveness against you. I am telling you these things because you may not have thought about this too much. Remember,when you sow seeds of bitterness,lies,anger,and unforgiveness,you are setting your future up to have others do the same to you. An example is saying lies about Carman concerning this marriage,or his personal life. As you do that,you have set into place a seed that will produce the same thing in your own life. The only way out of this,is to repent. The world we live in is hard enough without sowing seeds against your future. I am saying this in love,some of you are not realizing what the enemy of your soul is doing to you. He is setting you up so that you will sow the wrong seeds so that your future will be filled with his tornment.
Mark, how in the world did Carman convince you of that??? Rose DID NOT commit adultry. This is just another one of Carman’s tricks to destroy someone. Again, he is the victim!!
How is it that some of you can attack the people who question this man but totally dismiss his deeds? He just lied and ruined someone else’s life, and you’re giving him a free pass? Nonsense. This is one “spiritual leader” who is in desperate need of “spiritual help”. This is not something that Carman has done just “one time”. This is a way of life for him, he has a string of “broken hearts” behind him. And you know what, they were ALL mean, hateful people. Isn’t that amazing!
I sent in a post that should have showed up by now. Since it might not come through, here’s a briefer version of it, since maybe the links I sent weren’t accepted?
For T, no it was not Carol Anne who talked about the conception thing, it was me. And you got it wrong on what I said. It’s not about getting someone checked out to see if they can have a baby or not, or whether they are sterile or not. It’s not to do with rejection. It’s about whether or not a person is willing to have children if they can, and if they can’t are they willing to adopt.
When something is burning inside someone about having children, which I believe is a calling from God, and it’s been there for many years, and the person engaged to them knows it’s a crucial issue – to lie or mislead and say they are interested and then change their mind after they are married is a cruel and wrong thing to do, and grounds for nullification in my opinion. If you don’t want kids, don’t seek out someone who does, period. I won’t pretend to know all the details, since I don’t know them, and some of you people are making assumptions on what really happened.
People who get married for selfish reasons end up with a big void in their lives. They wonder what is wrong. Is God with them even in their sex life – let’s not forget Who the author of sex is. Statistically, couples who are into natural family planning, NFP, have the least amount of divorce out of all Christian groups. And it’s for both achieving or avoiding pregnancy, not just one thing.
There are many reasons why NFP is better, including being healthier. If you just look at the surface of it you will probably get defensive and miss it. Just check out the links if you are interested, you may find it surprisingly interesting and pleasant on how our reproductive systems really work.
And why are you just focusing on this one issue anyways, when there could be several or many reasons why this separation has occurred. Don’t believe lies and falsehoods and false assumptions being spread. Some of these are obvious, some devious. It’s good that some people continue to pray for God’s will instead of their own.
“…for the Lord seeth not as a man seeth;for man looketh on the outward appearance,but the Lord looketh on the heart.” 1Samuel 16:7 (KJV)
“Humanity measures a man by his accomplishments…heaven meausres a man by his heart.” Robb Thompson from Today’s Winning Key at http://winninginlife.org
Many of you have come here to do nothing but rant,rave,and gossip about what you think you see. You don’t know the hearts of the people involved. Your sources are not even close to being valid! ” I heard”, “they said”, “a friend of a friend”,etc…do not constitute valid sources. The only ones would be the court sources that are posted, but again they too only project what is going on outwardly. I think now would be a good time for us to all stop looking at the outward appearance of others lives and start looking at what is going on in our own hearts. No matter what scripture you quoted, or how strongly or even mockingly you wrote your post, God too was looking at your hearts! And you better believe He knows what was in it when you put in the things you did. This includes your admin. You began this thread by saying,
“I blogged about this specific incident in trying to raise up a standard in my blog posts to get to the point of if some major newsworthy event takes place (whether it’s local, national, global, or spiritual) and we want to comment on it, we need to reveal our sources either via the old bibliography standards, direct quotations, or if the content is online, directly link to it.
I am not pointing fingers at anybody within the blog / forums community. All I want to say is that we need to provide sources where applicable when we talk about content that affects the personal lives of people.”
You didn’t do it Bob. You have allowed people to say just about anything they wanted to about this man’s personal life, such as why he wanted an annulment, or why he was not speaking out. They’ve drawn their own conclusions and posted them as fact with nothing shown to back them up as YOU stated in the quote above.” Come on where is the “raising of the standard” you claim to have wanted. You are accountable for what you have allowed to go on.
Carman got married, Carman wanted an annulment which now seems to becoming a divorce. But do any of you know his heart? Have any of you bothered to consider that he might be the one who got hurt? That maybe he is in pain, and if you have experienced something painful that above and, beyond what in legal sources have told you not to say, that when you are in pain it isn’t always easy to talk about it. Ohh I know how the follow ups go… “You work for Carman, you are a personal friend of Carman, or You believe you were supposed to be Carman’s wife” … None of the above are true. I don’t have the story concerning this matter. I’m just a believer in truth! And very little is found here.
Mark, I don’t know what planet you are on. But it’s not the Kingdom of God. Because I know for a fact that Rose did not commit adultery and she did not run off with another man. That is an outright lie from the devil. I’m sick of reading these lies. Because that is what they are… nothing but lies about her. THERE WAS NO BIBLICAL REASON FOR AN ANNULLMENT OR A DIVORCE. And Rose did not leave Carman or abandon him, on the contrary, she prayed and prayed for her marriage to work out and begged him to go to counseling to save the marriage .And she PRAYED for Carman to Quit being afraid of other peoples lies about them. Someone sent out a fax saying that Carman and Rose committed adultery and that was not true. Rose wanted to go on national television and tell the truth and tell the partners the truth, but Carman did not want to do that. He was afraid of the damage it would do to his reputation and his ministry. Why would Rose fight the annullment if she had abandoned him? Why would she fight to the inth degree? If she had another man, why wouldn’t she want out of the marriage?
She was in love with Carman when she married him and had loved him when she met him over 14 years ago. Because she loved him and wanted her marriage to work.
Carman left Rose and the apartment they were living in and took most everything of value and didn’t even leave a note. He then had his secretary call her several days later and tell her that she had to be out of their apartment by a certain day because the lease was up. She was left all by herself. She packed up his stuff as he requested and put it in boxes and left the apartment before the time (day) that she was told to be out. He couldn’t reach her by phone or e mail for several days, so he says that she left him. But the truth is. She went out one afternoon to run some errands and when she came home to their apartment in Santa Monica, Carman was gone. She called a friend panicked worried sick about where he was and couldn’t understand why he had packed all of the things of value and didn’t even leave her a note. She tried and tried to call him on the phone and didn’t reach him until several hours later. He then told her he wasn’t coming back. So Carman left her, she did not leave him. It’s amazing how the truth of this situation has been twisted and twisted , But Carman knows what really happened and furthermore, So does God.
So people, we hate to burst anyones bubble about their idol. But it’s time that the truth be known. On October 20th, it will be final. A divorce. It’s painful. Because they could have worked it out. There was no sin here except the sin of selfishness, self love and idolizing and loving your own self and your own ministry more than the wife that you had just committed your life to in a covenant with God. He put his ministry and himself above the laws and love of God. Thats the truth and the whole truth so help me God.
Sandy, I believe you could be someone else trying to pretend. Stop spreading lies. What you pass off as facts are not the truth. This is a distorted picture, disinformation. Whoever you are, you make me wonder who the sick people really are.
“Mark”,
I really have a hard time buying your explanation about Rose leaving Carman for another man… I’m keeping an open mind, but if that was really the case, then why would Rose want to stop the annullment? There’s a whole lot less stigma with an annullment than a woman getting her third divorce.
Wow – ok . . . Anyone know who this Sandy is? If she is correct this is very disappointing. Mark, do you want to enlighten us? and Millie while I am at it can you elaborate on how you know what you know and where you get your information? Because if you guys want to convince me (and I would like to know the truth) you need to show me why I should take your word for all of this.
Carol Anne,
Again, keep me in check – I am not trying to participate in gossip but since everyone is so graciously putting their side out there, I would like to hear the rebuttal.
Also, I would love to hear your thoughts because you I respect. (Not that I don’t respect others here).
God Bless
Anonymous,
Thanks – I just mentioned Carol Anne in my post because I trust her to keep me in check and wanted her to do so for me. (Sorry for the confusion.) I agree with you 100% regarding NFP – quite familiar with it myself.
God Bless,
Quotes from Mario M’s April 04 newsletter (I hope he doesn’t mind): “Our office has been flooded with cards, letters, emails and phone calls of love and support that have deeply humbled me.”….When you go through a great betrayal, you get either bitter or better. I cannot take credit for choosing to get better… that was the mercy of God. My stint in the Valley of the shadow of death gave me priceless jewels of comfort that I need to pass on. In fact, scripture obligates me to share this comfort with you. 2 Corinthians 1: 4, ” Who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. Your heart is broken. The first thing you do is cry. You hurt in ways that you never thought were possible…..”
“Keep moving to avoid destruction. When you go through hell, you dare not stop. You need a plan that keeps you moving even if you start with baby steps. Your best friend is your iron will to recover. Your worst enemy is self-pity.”…”A broken heart heals through the work of Jesus; one of His missions is,” to bind up the broken-hearted”.”….”You know that you are going to come back from a broken heart when you choose to use your pain as fuel for a new beginning.”…
“The cruelest aspect of my heartache was that I could say nothing in my own defense when I wanted to scream! I found a vent in prayer. I saw how David poured out his soul to God about his enemies. (See Psalm 69).”….”Do not analyze, rehearse, regret or daydream about your problem. This will only deepen your wound. Submerge all of your these thoughts in prayer until it becomes an automatic reaction. When you examine your own faults more than you examine the faults of your enemy.”….
“Even if you are clearly not at fault for your heartbreak, you must still check yourself out. There are big reasons for examining yourself. For one thing, you never want to go through this again, so it is urgent for you to see why for example you chose the wrong mate or how you opened yourself up for this disaster.”….”When you agree to a partnership with Jesus to build a new and better you healing speeds up. When you are living to make things right more than reliving how they did you wrong.”…
“You are not hoping for your enemy’s destruction, you are hoping for your own reconstruction.”…”When you want God to clear your path more than you want Him to clear your name.”…
JUNE 2004 newsletter: “Some are content to be the best party going on the deck of the Titanic. However, if you want to have a decent America for your children and grandchildren then you have no choice. It is urgent that we get back to all of the power, all of the gifts and the entire person of the Holy Spirit.”….
I was thinking today about the seeds being sowed in this blog. A lot of you are assuming that you will never be in the spotlight,and that your life will never be an open book for someone else to read. If you have a pocket full of apple seeds,and you put them in the ground,eventually you will get an apple tree that produces apples. The seeds you are planting,will bring a harvest. With lying,angry,and unforgiveness seeds,you cannot literally see these things as seeds,because its sown in the spirit. Its like air we breathe,you cannot see it,but its there just the same. The principal for sowing and reaping works,and the seeds you are planting,are the ones you will get a harvest on. If you lie about someone,that seed produces lies against you. If you sow unforgiveness,it produces unforgiveness against you. I am telling you these things because you may not have thought about this too much. Remember,when you sow seeds of bitterness,lies,anger,and unforgiveness,you are setting your future up to have others do the same to you. An example is saying lies about Carman concerning this marriage,or his personal life. As you do that,you have set into place a seed that will produce the same thing in your own life. The only way out of this,is to repent. The world we live in is hard enough without sowing seeds against your future. I am saying this in love,some of you are not realizing what the enemy of your soul is doing to you. He is setting you up so that you will sow the wrong seeds so that your future will be filled with his tornment.
“do not” misread my intentions.
On my post at 9:47 a.m. I meant “do not misread” my hands didn’t follow my mind quick enough.
But since, I am making a correction to this post. Can I ask those of you who insist on providing us with juicy tidbits of information, could you please also identify yourself and explain why we should listen to you? There is gossip and there is exposing. Now I think we will all agree that exposing Satan is a necessary thing. If there are issues (on either side here) that need to be exposed (not gossiped about, etc.) just plainly state how you are in the know, identify yourself, and why you feel that you need to broadcast this information.
If all you have is gossip . . . save it . . . thanks!
God bless,
P.S. Mark, are you speaking as Carman’s authority? If so, I think you should state so. If this is not the case, state that this is not the case.
Idols/ Truth Hirelings /Shepards
Keith Green: “My dearest family in Jesus, why are we so star struck? Why do we idolize Christian singers and speakers? We go from glorifying musicians in the world, to glorifying Christian musicians. It’s all idolatry! Can’t you see that? . . Satan is getting a great victory as we seem to worship these ministers on tapes and records, and clamor to get their autographs in churches and concert halls from coast to coast. ”
What Carman’s defender’s do not seem to understand is that he has accountability to the flock and partners. “God resists the proud but draws nigh unto the broken and contrite”.
A hireling will use the sheep but will not protect them in times of trouble. He will throw them to the wolves to save his neck; where as a shepard will LAY DOWN his life for the sheep.
Yes I see a lack of love here, A lack of love FROM a spiritual leader, Carman , a lack of accountability for resources, ministry integrity, proper doctrine, reconciliation/ relationships etc etc..
I am sorry but one man is not all this trouble and damage to the body of christ;
he should humble himself and see to it that all things are set straight with his partners and the sheep who have been hurt and mislead by him, not only over this but over the years: his actions, lack of actions, and questionable associations, doctrines and marketing tactics.
As for all of those who are throwing out the word gossip and telling others to shut up, let me point out to you that is SPIRITUAL ABUSE, twisted scripture and very cultlike behaviour and tactics.
God never told us to park our brains at the door: He told us to try, test and prove all things.
You may choose the Lord, or choose an idol.
It is time for a lot of people to be free In Jesus: Jesus is not a system.
He came to set you free. Anytime , anyone comes to take away your liberty, your ability to reason and question and prove all things according to the word, walk away fast. Your soul and salvation are not worth it.
It is time to drive the money changers out of the Temple( again).
God bless you
Many actors are very narcissisitic. No accusations, but if the shoe fits…
See if this rings true or sounds familiar:
_______________________________________________________________________
Narcissistic Personality Disorder from DSM-IV Made Easy
“People with Narcissiistic Personality disorder have a lifelong pattern of grandiosity (in behavior and fantasy), thirst for admiration, and lack of empathy. These attitudes permeate most aspects of their lives. They feel that they are unusually special; they are self-important individuals who commonly exaggerate their accomplishments to make themselves seem bigger than life…
Despite their grandiose attitudes, narcissisitic individuals have fragile self-esteem and often feel unworthy; even at times of great personal success, they may feel fraudulent or undeserving…
When criticised they may cover their distress with a facade of icy indifference. As sensitive as they are about their own feelings, they have little apparent understanding of the feelings and needs of others and may feign empathy, JUST AS THEY MAY LIE TO COVER THEIR OWN FAULTS.
Narcissistic people often fantasize about wild success and envy those who have achieved it. They may choose friends they think can help them get what they want. Their job performance can suffer (due to interpersonal problems) or can be enhanced (due to their eternal drive for success). Because they tend to be concerned with grooming and value their youthful looks, they may become increasingly depressed as they age.
Belief that personal uniqueness renders the patient fit only for association with (or understanding by) people or institutions of rarefied status.
A sense of entitilement (patient unreasonalbly expects favorable treatment or automatic granting of own wishes)
Arrogance or haughtiness in attitude or behavior
Lack of empathy (patient does not recognize or identifiy with the feelings and needs of others…”
________________________________________________________________________
Now what would this look like with a Christian veneer? Hmmm.
Someone once said, the truth is in the details. Since Carman ain’t even acknowledged that he has married and is now going through this publically, I suspect it is easy to guess where the truth really is. Too bad he didn’t listen to Rose and publically go on TV etc. I suspect that his ministry would have survived doing this better than it will survive his cowardly behavior here.
And the truth is that I really don’t need to many details because Carman’s immature pathetic behavior makes it pretty easy to see where the truth lies.
Sandy, you are absolutely right. Thanks for being brave enough to tell the truth.
And to Anonymous4 (Alias Carman himself)…it’s time to look in the mirror and see
your real reflection and not the one you want to see. May God have mercy on you for what you have done.
I think I can answer why Rose fought the annullment and opted for the divorce. The annullment accused her of fraud the divorce was uncontested (and probably no fault).
The person with the personality disorder is not this evangelist. By his 26 year ministry fruit you will know if you look at the whole picture. I suspect that someone is posing as more than one person and spreading stories that aren’t true. So who is to gain from that? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Do you really want to believe what’s on a forum with people you don’t know and have never met? Come now, let us reason together.
Sandy,
It seems to me that you know alot of details. And something about your post rings as TRUTH. I appreciate the risk that you took in posting the truth, and that it was probably not an easy decision to post what you did.
I am so disappointed in Carman. And I am very sad for Rose. May God’s restoring love and grace be upon her. May her heart not be hardened. May she find love again.
Sandy, I am saddened by what this must have done to your family. May you find strength and comfort from those who are close to you. May God pour out his blessing on you and your children. Standing up for righteousness is not easy. But the TRUTH shall set you free. May the TRUTH of this situation set free many women who are in bondage to an idol.
And finally, may Carman find the love of Christ which is available to him. May he surrender all to his Saviour, and in so doing, find joy unspeakable.
I was thinking today about the anger being sowed in this blog. A lot of you are assuming that you will never be looked at closely,and that your life will never be an open book for someone else to read. If you have a pocket full of thorn seeds,and you put them in the ground,eventually you will get a thorn bush that produces thorns. Lets hope you do not have to walk in bare feet when this time comes. The seeds you are planting,will bring a harvest. With lying,angry,and unforgiveness seeds,you cannot literally see these things as seeds,because its sown in the spirit. Its like air we breathe,you cannot see it,but its there just the same. The principal for sowing and reaping works,and the seeds you are planting,are the ones you will get a harvest on. If *you* lie about someone,that seed produces lies *against* you. If you sow unforgiveness,it produces unforgiveness against you. I am telling you these things because you have not thought about this too much. Remember,when you sow seeds of bitterness,lies,anger,and unforgiveness,you are *setting your future up to have others do the same to you*. An example is saying lies about Carman concerning this marriage,or his personal life. Or making judgements about him,and not knowing the facts. As you do that,you have set into place a seed that will produce the same thing in your own life. The only way out of this,is to repent. The world we live in is hard enough without sowing seeds against your future. I am saying this in love,some of you are not realizing what the enemy of your soul is doing to you. He is setting you up so that you will sow the wrong seeds so that your future will be filled with his tornment. This is where most of you miss it. Your mouth is a gate,and as you open your mouth,out of it comes blessings or cursings,…and your future is framed by YOUR words and intentions. Just because we may not know your identity,…God surely does,and so does the enemy of your soul. As you try to grasp control in here,you lose control in your future,as you speak ill of another,the next time the door swings around,someone will lie against you,in an area of your life that you cannot defend yourself. If you want mercy to lift you out of a time of trouble,learn how to stay quiet.
#190, T, first let me say that your conclusion that she “opted for a divorce” instead of an annulment is inherently wrong… In Nevada, under the conditions that carman is applying, she now has NO CHOICE in the matter of ending this marriage if carman wants to do it this way.
Anyway, if an annulment had been granted, it’s ALL wiped off the books, including the “charges” (which, as we all know now were bogus or he would have been heard by a judge)..
so again, it is less of a stigma to get an annulment than a third divorce…
And… I still don’t see where a woman fighting the dissolution of her marriage could be construed as someone trying to get out of it when she is offered a CEAN SLATE… So I still disagree with “mark’s” statements about her.
Oh, and I agree with whoever said that “mark” needs to stand up and be clear if he is the “spiritual authority” speaking for carman. (I seriously doubt it… as “odd” as I tend to think chironna can be, I just can’t see him stooping to this nonsense – and it’s obvious that the poster is trying to make us think it’s him).
PS – no offense intended in the “odd’ remark… I happen to enjoy listening to chironna, and believe that he is an excellent teacher.
Folks, let’s talk in love. You can be “t’d off” and “mad as all get out” at Carman and I really wouldn’t blame you. Not because of all of the allegations surrounding the situation with Rose but because of how the ministry has handled this situation, etc. Now I really have no place to tell you to watch the manner in which you speak because I have been a big offender myself at times; however, regardless of how you may disagree with Anon4 and Dawn one thing for sure is that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
Now, I am not going to suggest that you call up the Carman Ministries number or send email etc. because I know many, many have already tried that. (However, if you haven’t you might still try this.) I agree with Carol Anne that if you want to say something or ask something of Carman address him plainly here. But do it in love because I guarantee you he will not hear it otherwise.
What I liked about TxRose’s post is that it did not address the issue surrounding the marriage and upcoming divorce (not that I don’t want all those that have the juicy tidbits to give us a reason to believe them). It addressed what many people have a right to question and confront Carman with. But again, do it in love. There are many things that I agreed with in this post. But I agreed with them not to punch Carman or hurt him in any way. I agreed with them because I believe these are things that God would have Carman see. Not because I don’t have a splinter in my eye that doesn’t need to be removed because I have a HUGE log; however, sometimes we need someone to lovingly help us see this. You see – I believe that the scripture concerning this and rebuking an individual CAN be reconciled. Don’t judge Carman and call him a narcissistic individual because that serves very little purpose; however, confronting him about issues that concern you regarding his ministry (in a loving) manner may have a chance. I don’t know – that is up to Carman. Maybe Carman is narcissistic or maybe, just maybe, he has put on an armor that appears indifferent because of attacks that he has received that were not legitimate. Or maybe the truth is somewhere in between.
Again, folks, if you are angry at Carman or the ministry remember the golden rule. Confront him in love (I am sure he would prefer that you not confront him at all – but we can pray that he will see the benefit in this).
To Carman,
I apologize if my previous post angers you because I have suggested that posters directly confront you in their posts regarding what they are upset about; however, I think this is more productive in all the hate that seems to be all over the posts right now. No one wants to be confronted; however, as I believe that you probably said, you are a big boy and I believe you can handle it.
And I didn’t just post this just to stop the hate being posted recently, it is also meant to help posters realize that they can be angry and confront individuals but they need to do it in a spirit of love. I know I wish I had learned this early on.
God Bless,
Millie,
I looked in my mirror and Carman wasn’t there, so I’m afraid you are going to have to get your message to him another way.
A Different Anon,
That definition describes most of the people I’ve seen post here! Hmm wonder of that means there are alot of actors here? Something to think about.
TxRose,
Are you a partner? Just wondered since you seemed concerned about what he has or has not said to his partners. And for the record Jesus is my protector. Didn’t look for Carman to do that job anyway. Passing along information you have heard and or expounded upon is gossip. Gossip in itself can be very abusive and destroy lives. That’s why one should be very careful what you say about other people. That and the fact that has been spoken over and over that the Bible speaks strongly against gossip and gossipers. I won’t repeat the scriptures here,they’ve been posted many times. I don’t think quoting the scripture as it is written is SPIRITUAL ABUSE. In fact, if one is bothered by the quoting of scripture on a certain matter it usually means they need to be on their face having a heart to heart with the Lord about it.
T,
Amen! I’ve been coming in here for months waiting on these posters to tell from what valid source they have received their information. I don’t know them or their friends so that doesn’t constitute a valid source for me. They seem to think people are just supposed to believe what they say. That doesn’t work for me.
A Thinker,
Hmmm I knew I smelled something burning!
I could go on and on, but mostly I’m disappointed in no response from the admin about how he equates the posts he has allowed with “higher standards in a blog”.
To Millie (#174),
You said “This is one “spiritual leader†who is in desperate need of “spiritual help”. This is not something that Carman has done just “one time”. This is a way of life for him, he has a string of “broken hearts†behind him. And you know what, they were ALL mean, hateful people. Isn’t that amazing!â€
Well, first of all you too are in “desperate need of “spiritual help”.†It’s evident in the way you rejoice over another Christian’s fall. That is so not of God. Even if you think you know the truth the Scriptures are very clear that we are NOT to rejoice over the destruction of others.
Seriously, get some counseling for your own broken heart before it’s too late.
*************
To Sandy (#170 & #177),
Your posts are lacking proof and that makes them gossip. What you say may be true, but we don’t know that and we don’t know you.
I can understand standing up for your friend, but this is not the place. You are not dispelling gossip you are adding to it. You are not helping anyone, even your friend.
I won’t even go into discussing why her 2nd marriage broke up or why would she marry one guy if she’s in love with another. But your 2nd post brought it up and now makes me (and I’m sure many others) wonder. Not to mention that I can think of several reasons why she might fight an annulment when she has another man in the wings.
See, you didn’t help, you just added to the problems.
+++++++++++++++
To Mark (#169),
Well I was right there with you until you got to your own accusations. Once again, without proof it is merely gossip. And because you gossiped it pretty much wiped out the good portion of your post. Sorry.
===============
To Dawn (#166), Anon 33 (#173), & Anonymous4 (#176),
I totally agree with you!
And Anon33 maybe the third time is the charm.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To T (#171),
Man, you spend one day sewing and don’t go near the computer and everyone goes insane.
Yes, after this deal I’m thinking a prenup is a great idea. I’m also thinking a full background, credit, medical, and reference checks along with some really good counseling is also needed before I’ll be saying “I do†to anyone.
I didn’t use to agree with prenups. As a matter of fact I was pretty strong willed about it. (Imagine that, me strong willed, who would’ve guessed?) I figured if God tells you to marry someone then you don’t need a prenup because you should trust God. However, if God tells you to sign a prenup, then you probably should. Just like if God tells you not to marry someone then you probably shouldn’t. (And sometimes He tells us things with very clear signs.)
Oh, and check with God and make sure its His Perfect Will for you to marry a specific person and not just your own emotions leading you. (Of course I knew this second point before hand, this whole deal just proved it to be really true. God knows what’s best for us much better than we do.)
“““““““““““““““
(side bar here) Thanks Carman, that’s just one thing I’ve learned from this whole deal. No matter who it is you marry check them out.
I’m not saying you didn’t check, but…….well…..it kinda looks that way. Sorry. I keep praying for you and that God’s Perfect Will be done in your life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To TXrose (#186)
Can you give the man a chance? It’s not even over yet and you are calling for him to explain himself. He may not be able to do that yet.
You also said “As for all of those who are throwing out the word gossip and telling others to shut up, let me point out to you that is SPIRITUAL ABUSE, twisted scripture and very cultlike behaviour and tactics.
God never told us to park our brains at the door: He told us to try, test and prove all things.â€
It is not SPIRITUAL ABUSE to publicly rebuke those who want to publicly call themselves Christians and say they are doing things in the name of Jesus and out of “concern†for a fellow believer. Because when you “try, test, and prove all things†they say and do and find that they are not in line with the Word of God then you have a duty and responsibility as a believer to set them straight.
And identifying “facts†as gossip is also not SPIRITUAL ABUSE. In fact it is shinning a light on the supposed “facts†to “try, test, and prove all things.†When someone makes a statement and it cannot be tried, tested and proved then it IS gossip and cannot be taken as fact. (No matter how true it may actually be.)
And the Bible is very clear that we are not to gossip or grumble or judge. You need to go to the first blog and read the following posts: #407, 472, 480, & 542.
You also said “It is time for a lot of people to be free In Jesus: Jesus is not a system.
He came to set you free. Anytime , anyone comes to take away your liberty, your ability to reason and question and prove all things according to the word, walk away fast. Your soul and salvation are not worth it.â€
I (and I’m sure others here) are NOT trying to take away anyone’s “ability to reason and question and prove all things according to the word.â€
I agree with you, you should always do that. But there is very little of that going on here. A lot of what we have seen here are people who have been hurt or know someone who has and they are venting which the Word is clear we are not to do in public or anywhere else. (Venting is also called grumbling and Observer went over that scripture so I won’t bore you with it here.)
And you don’t have to do this “testing” in a public forum. In fact you it should be between you and the Lord first.
You then said “It is time to drive the money changers out of the Temple( again).â€
Yes, but Jesus did this and because He was God He knew the true hearts the money changes. Since I’m not God and I’m sure no one else here is, we should not be judging people’s hearts or “true†or “hidden†motives. In fact we have scripture to back that one up too. (Observer also covered that, so again I won’t bore you with the details here.)
And no I’m not judging others’ hearts. What I am doing is trying to get others to see what the Word of God says about what they are doing. Since they think it’s okay to publicly rebuke others, then they should be open to it themselves.
————————–
To the blog,
By proof I don’t mean the intimate details, but how about court documentation. And the fact is what others say without proof if true is hearsay and is not admissible. (Hearsay another word for gossip.) There is a reason that hearsay is not allowed as testimony of fact. Because you didn’t actually witness it and because it is clouded by your point of view.
And if anyone is wondering why I’m referring people back to the first blog to read Observer’s posts, that’s because I’m tired of wasting my time reposting the same Scriptures over and over and people still not listening. Why waste my time if they aren’t going to listen anyway. Observer and I have already said them at least once, so it’s there if they really want to do the work.
Yes, my mission here is to speak the truth in love.
Gossiping is wrong, it’s not of God, and you are sinning when you do it even if you have the right intentions. If you can’t prove what you say, then you probably shouldn’t say anything at all. Even if you can prove it you still should probably not say anything especially in public.
And if God has not called you to publicly rebuke/discuss/etc. someone else, then you are wrong and sinning to do so anyway.
And it is definitely not of God to rejoice over the problems of others. That is so evil it makes me physically pull away from you because I don’t want to get hit by the lighting bolt that is headed your way.
You know there is a scripture that tells us that we will be hated just as Jesus was. Evil hates the truth.
So the more you post against Carman the better you make him look and the worse you make yourself look. Since none of us know each other and when you don’t offer proof that can be independently checked and verified then your gossip (because that’s what it’s reduced to) looks like the act of someone who hates Carman.
Therefore if Carman is this hated, then he must be following God’s Perfect Will. After all why would Satan come against him this heavily if he weren’t following God’s Perfect Will?
Without knowing all the real facts I don’t know the real truth of Carman’s situation, but I do know evil when I read it. And there is a lot here.
Now, I need to go pray for all of us.
I am very interested in people who know the answers to my questions about Carman and who he really is. I appreciate that they would speak up and tell what they know.
I agree that I would like you to say if you know him or Rose personally that you say so that we may know that.
Like one email said that perhaps the reason was children that they didn’t even know Carman or Rose. I don’t remember anyone saying that they knew that at all so that wasn’t even a real reaason brought into this.
But I could be wrong about that I don’t have the time to read the whole blog again .
I DO NOT now or have I ever been in his paid chatroom bought pictures of him for whatever reason (My kids never wanted pictures of Carman. He is a old guy to them) I didn’t save them for myself either. Not to judge anyone else just to make myself clear.
I am a late 40 year old grandma of 4 and I do not know 1 thing about Carman but what I have been told by him and his TBN friends. What I have Seen on TV or Video or online. Never met or even saw that man in person.
I looked this stuff up after I got a email from his ministry to bombard TBN with letters on a show for him he sent out a thankyou letter and It sparked my interest as to what was going on . .
I contacted TBN but also wrote that I would like to see Carman do a show interviewing the small pastors who don’t get a lot of notice and find their interesting stories and veiws not Vegas or Holywood big shots.
I am just plain tired of celebrityTBN and I am not the least bit interested in seeing him interview another celebrity Christian.
I did this search and found this blog after that. I have a enquuiring mind that wants to know.
I would also like to know the link to the other site that is discussing this subject if someone would be so kind.
I am interested in reading it also if we can and want to know what ever is truth about who Carman is and what he is really about. I want to know for myself.
But I would also like to know that those who say they know him do really know him or her for that matter.
I wondered about Carman the day that I heard Dwight Thompson on Praise the Lord go off in his sermon on this hollywood type person and his entourage not being revival and there was more but I can’t remember what all he said just the spirit in him when he spoke that . It was absolutely the ring of truth if you had been watching TBN at the time .
I felt sure that he was talking about Carman.
Dwight had met Carman the night before or a couple of nights before and was obviously not impressed. It was several years ago on TBN in Nashville when Carman was coming on every night
They never showed that segment again. Did anyone else see it and get it the way I did.
I can’t verify that Dwight was talking about Carman although I believe he was by what was said . So that is gossip unless someone can verify it.
Then there was things he said about Patricia Manterola (A married woman that didn’t seem proper for a single minister to be saying openly.
Disregarding her marital status and his Chrristian audience a few times .
I found this chat with patricia fans 2002 not really terrribly out of line but this is a very “woman of the world type” from things that I have found on her
She is Not what you would think of for a lowly humble minister of God to be head over heels about. http://www.patriciamanterolafans.com/exclusives/carman0527EN.htm
You may go to http://WWW.Carman.org look at the archives for the year up to January and thereafter and see if you can find any hint with in that year to a special friend , someone very important to him that he wishes to share or othewise ?
You know he doesn’t have to tell everything or let his loved one be open to danger from overzealous fans in order to avoid being seen as deceptive. He decieved and if he is a man of honour he will repent and do right about it by psoting openly fro everyone some kind of why I did this I am sorry kind of thing.
IT IS A PUBLIC Site not even a personal thing.
Why not even try to prepare his fanbase by giving a year full of stories and scripture on this womens past ahead of time? That way his forgiveness of her past (I don’t really feel any of us have the right to forgive her past by the way it is just my way of writing a thought process.) would be expected.
After you read the questions of the day that people have posted here that Carman put on his PAY ONLY CHAT SITE.
Read back through those archive again then tell me how I can not be interested in what kind of man is this Carman that we have all been led to believe is so upright and honourable we can hold him up as part of Christians leadershiip to honour .
I can read people magazine (I confess I do at times.)and you know it is so rare to find even a worldly Celebrity man of such baseness. I admit I don’t spend a great deal of time looking but I am shocked with Carmans website and chatroom behavour
Leaving out Carman and Rose personal life marraige and divorce which cannot help but bring up a lot of questions .
I want to know what was going on while Carman was updating his website chatting with his fans and at the same time putting out misleading questions of the day leading on his fans with lies and deceptions in the things he was telling them . The Whole time finding the love of his life . Thanks Raye
Welcome Travel post, how are we today? I am getting ready to post my vote for this
up coming election. I do pray that all of you will take the time to vote. Too often this
Post Travel, instead of broadening the mind, merely lengthens the same old
conversations. It gets a little boring, don’t you think? I hope this post finds you all
in good health and that my Italian is not too difficult to read? I am still thinking about
my last visit I had with you. I’m writing to let you know that my parents and one of my
brothers and I are coming to Sicily. My father, who is now 73, would like to visit the
birthplace of his parents, that is, Camporeale. Would it be possible to see you all on
October 30th for a Gospel meeting? Maybe some of these people in here would like
to join us? We can talk about the blood of Jesus and also about Carman. Hey, we
all need to be covered with the blood of Jesus because we are all sinners in the eyes
of God. I have so much respect for the blood, do you? Do you respect what God
did for you? I’m really wondering about this. We never really know when we might be
traveling to the other side. Are you ready to face God in heaven? Many of you have
so much bitterness and unforgiveness you can’t really live your life in the everlasting
joy of Christ. You keep your eyes on man and not on the Lord Himself. What’s up
with that? I pray that some of you in here who are so emotionally involved with this
post will take sometime out and take a nice vacation to visit family or friends. Don’t
be so focus on the bad but trust God to make every bad situation turn around for the
glory of God. Not for the glory of man. Have a grateful heart in our Lord because we
all know that so many people in this world are having struggles just to keep alive.
Our hope should always be in our Lord and not in people. Now I must respond to
those that asked me to. Welcome Millie, I could tell how difficult and uncomfortable
it is to talk about Carman. You say he has a trail of broken hearts? Did he break
yours? Then you and the others need to breakaway by forgiving him. Don’t break-
down, unless you all want to breakdown in the Holy Ghost dance of praise? Someone
in here hand me Carman’s cd, House of Praise is a good one. Turn up the volume,
thanks.Now when you all get into praise and worship you will be able to breakthrough
and as you forgive others that have sinned against you, your Lord will also heal your
broken hearts. This is the BEST way to live is in the joy of our Lord God. Now lets
speak about ALL those hundreds of thousands of hearts that came to know Christ
Jesus as Lord and Savior through Carman ministries. What’s up with that? You all
want to focus your attention on something that has already been forgiven by God.
When God allows us to go through hard times and yes it can be because of a wrong
decision, God is the only one that is going to turn something that was meant for bad
and turn it around for God’s glory. There are good reasons that God has concerning
bad situations that are not always understood by man. This is where a true believer
must put all there trust in God and again not in self nor man. Millie, you should
know that God’s Holy Spirit has used Carman to bring the message of the Gospel
of Jesus Christ to all those souls. Carman doesn’t want to cause anyone pain
nor does he want to destroy lives. His mission is to save as many as the Lord God
brings his way and that is the true purpose of this man’s life. Take it as you please
but this is the truth. Welcome Sandy, If Carman really is such a BAD person, why
does Rose still want her marriage to workout? I also need to correct you in when
you said I don’t belong to the Kingdom of God. I have been serving God for over
20yrs. I walk with him and I talk with him. I feed the needy and I take children
from the other side of the tracks to the malls to get everything they will need for
school, including their shoes/toothbrushes, etc. I spend more than half my annual
salery to make changes in our communities for our Lord. I work hard for my living
and I never ask anyone to give me money. God is my provider. I also pray for
this sick and visit those that can’t get out. You are wrong to judge me and you
are very wrong in saying what you did about Carman. You are not telling the truth.
If someone is telling you this you are not getting all the right information. Don’t tell
me that you were there because I surely didn’t see you at all. Time heals all
wounds. I know many of you are not going to like this next statement but you shall
see someday how true this is. This was a learning experience for both parties.
This was a blessing in disguise and the will of God shall be done on earth as it is in
heaven. This is one of the reasons it didn’t work out in the sight of God. God will
stir up things if needed to get those that he has called back into their purpose in
Christ. Welcome T, I am only speaking for Carman because God has placed it
in my spirit to do so. Carman will speak for himself when the time is right. Welcome
To Tx. Rose. Stop dropping so many roses in here. I hear you clearly and it does
not smell like flowers. Welcome Thinker, you need to get washed in the blood and
stop being rude to your brother in Christ. Shame on you. Think about this, would
you go on national t.v. if you were not getting along with your wife? I don’t thinker
think so. Carman didn’t want to embarrass Rose, he seeks only peace. He has
peace with God and not one person in this world can take this from him. Lets all
agree that Rose can also have peace in her life. I also do pray for her.
My brother Carman is not pathetic at all, he is with the right authorities in
his church and he has honored his pastor’s instructions, amen. Have faith in God
and don’t worry about others. I want to also say that I do not work for Carman
ministries. Now a word from the word: Romans 8: 28-37 And we know that all
things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the calling
according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to
be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among
many brothers. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and
whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also
glorified. What shall we then say to these things? IF GOD BE FOR US, WHO
CAN BE AGAINST US? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up
for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall
lay anything to the CHARGE OF GOD’S ELECT? IT IS GOD THAT JUSTIFIETH.
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, YES, rather, that is risen
again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercessions for
us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress,
or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for
the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through
him that love us. That is the truth.
I
I only spoke what was the truth in my blog. I have no ax to grind or reason or purpose to lie. The reason I told the truth was that I was sick of the lies I was reading about Carmans soon to be ex wife, Rose. She DID NOT commit adultery and she DID NOT abandon him. If Carman was standing before God, he would have to agree with every word that was stated in that statement, because it is the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
She WAS NOT a money grubber, she was not loking to marry Carman because he was famous. At the time she married him, he was involved in two lawsuits and she didn’t even think that Carman had any money when she married him. She didn’t care about his money, she didn’t care about his fame, SHE LOVED HIM. She didn’t want anything but him and a family.
Everything that was said is truth, it’s not my problem if its not believed by some. But God knows the truth and Gods know I told the truth. Carmans fans will not believe it and those who idolize him anð think he can do no wrong will not believe it. But that doesn’t bother me, because I know the truth. I love Carman and Rose, but they both know the truth of this situation.
I was sick of what I reading to the point that I had to speak up and share the truth about this woman. No one is perfect, but what she had been accused of on this blog are lies. Her major sin was loving a man who loved himself and his ministry more than her. I wish she would have know that before and hopefully she wouldn’t have married him and subjected herself to all the pain that she has endured because of it and the false accusations and evil schemes that have been plotted against her. In the end she has been vindicated … thank you Jesus. The annullment was a farce. The fraud charges were lies. Even the courts couldn’t stand up and validate the charges for an annullment , so the divorce will be final this week.
Therefore when he was personally challenged and his ministry challenged, by this anonymous fax that was sent out to pastors in this country— he chose himself and his ministry over the woman that he supposedly loved enough to marry her after 48 years of being single. She was the one HE CHOSE after all those years of meeting so many woman and having the opportunity to marry beauty pagent winners, movie and television stars. This is the woman HE CHOSE. HE CHOSE her above all of them. AND YET HIS LOVE FOR HER WAS NOT GREATER THAN HIS LOVE FOR HIMSELF AND HIS MINISTRY.
The narcissitic commentary that someone put on here is very prophetic and true to this situation. Carman loved himself and his ministry more than he loved the woman that HE CHOSE to marry after all those years of being single. How lonely his life must really be. And his illusive dream of wife, and children goes on….. He will soon be 49 , and his love for himself and his ministry … well it’s taken him to a sad and very lonely place. We pray for him .
I don’t want to continue to argue with anyone here. The truth is the truth. GOD KNOWS ITS THE TRUTH. The truth will set you free. Whom the Lord sets free is free indeed. And today I am free because I have said nothing but what is the truth. I would stand today and some day will stand in the court of my God and testify to these truths. And I would and will have no fear because I’ve told nothing but the truth, so help me God. God bless you all.
Some people have split personalities. One side will sincerely say and believe they are born again, while another side will do and believe the opposite. Double minded and unstable, needing lots of prayers. They will be destructive in other people’s lives, and also self-destructive. Some people infiltrate ministries, lead double lives, and do as much damage as they can; and not all of them have split personalities, some of them do it on purpose. This has been going on for centuries. Jesus said there would be tares among the wheat and wolves in sheep’s clothing.
ADMIN:
PERSONAL & CONFIDENTIAL:
Is this Anonymous 4 perhaps Carman himself on here. If it’s not, then he’s missing a real good chance.
It sort of sounds like him, and I was just wondering.
Also, how did he know to address you as “Bob”?
Just wondering. I’m sure that he knows about this blog going on; and I would seriously doubt if he could refrain from engaging or attempting to defend himself from an Anonymous position. You know that he is known for his hot boiling temper! Please keep all of this in confidence.
Maybe all of this is God’s plan to bring him down, humble him, and finally use him as a REAL MAN OF GOD; and not just some sex image OR a pagan image and idol.
Please reply in confidence to personal email address,
Just a simple line or two will suffice
THANKS FOR KEEPING THIS CONFIDENTIAL!
Thanks,
Sandy,
Thank you for telling the truth. I believe that you took a great risk to tell the truth. I don’t believe that you made any of it up, you have nothing to lose and nothing to gain, except the favor of the Lord for standing on the side of the righteous … righteousness and truth. God bless you. God will honor you for truth. He always honors truth. It’s about time someone told the truth, Carman sure isn’t telling the truth to his partners, pastors and friends. We have been hurt by his lack of truthfulness about this entire situation. The entire body of Christ is affected and hurt and our witness if hurt when our leaders don’t tell the truth and hide behind their celebrity status. Thanks again my sister.
Admin,
I was just getting ready to write this when I saw the other post… my question was also about anonymous4, however, not about who it is…
I was just wondering how anonymous4 got to have his/her name show up here in red instead of black????
Just curious.
Sandy,
Amen. May God keep you strong.
Dear Carol Anne,
When did God abdicate the throne and put you in charge? Did you happen to notice that you have a judgement about everyone on this blog? Your posts are looking very much like a resume for the position of wife #2.
Looking the other way is not always the wisest of choices. There is a time when someone needs to Raise the Standard! What if as a result of this, the Pastor at your wedding decided to incorporate the words “Till divorce us do part.” You know, just in case you made a mistake, or your husband decides that he no longer loves you or has any responsibility to work his marriage out. He could leave after a couple of months and have someone else call you to tell you the marriage is off. And that would be OK with you?
For too long Christians have looked the other way, and have not held accountable our leaders to a standard of righteousness. Because it would also put our own lives on that same plain, and we want “wiggle room” when it comes to obeying God’s Word.
Yes, we all have sinned…but should we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid.
There is an alternative to all this, it’s called repentance.
Amen, Mark! Pleased to meet you, too, and the love of Christ in your response! She had 2 men within 3 years, yet some people refuse to admit that she could be the bigger contributor to that instead of the other two. And of alias Sandy’s messages (who could be someone else), tell me where is the proof of your scenario. If the right people were interviewed, your story could fall flat. I’ve seen too much chauvinism in reverse here, and I speak as a female.
To the Whole Blog,
Folks, forgive me . . . I don’t have time to really comment on all of this but I will reread the posts at a later time. I have a request – I know it is silly (but humor me, please????). We all have our little strange things about us. I have a child that you don’t want to be pit up against in a game concerning dates because this child has to hear a date once and he remembers it forever. (Which helps in social studies a great deal.) I myself have my little odd tendencies and get distracted by silly things when I read. Ever read a book and notice an error? Well those things drive me crazy. I am not saying I am the best proofreader because I am not – I am just saying that these things distract me from the message.
So if you will have mercy on this little (ok, that may be an exaggeration) christian here
and please just look at the format of your posts. I am not the posting police but I am having a hard time reading long posts with run on paragraphs that last forever and cut and paste posts. Hey, I can have just as many grammatical errors as anyone else and I don’t expect anyone to post perfectly because I know that I cannot do this. Please, please, consider this out of love. That way I can read and try to understand your post instead of being distracted by minor issues. (I know this is my issue but I suspect it could also bother others out there so I am just pleading about it.)
And if you want to pray for me about this you are welcome to do that too! :0)
Thanks!
Anonymous you really should get to know more about the places you post and the people behind them. Try this link for your viewing pleasure and you’ll find out why I addressed Admin as Bob http://www.availablelightonline.com/faq.html Nothing sinister about it!! And for the zillioneth time!!! I AM NOT CARMAN!!! Sorry to yell, but a few seem to be having a little trouble comprehending that.
Also Anonymous I too think there are some split personalities! I think they are hanging out here! And I think they are posting under several different names. Just too many similiarities in their posts.
Curious I’ve wondered about that myself. Hmmm red for warning, stop, too hot to handle?? Hmmm what could it be?? I think if you look back you’ll see others in red though. Aww and here we both thought I was SPECIAL!!
Bob umm I mean Admin….still waiting for the answer to how you equate the posts you allow with “raising the standard in your blogs”. I’m sure some others would be interested too.
OK . . . Please Lord – Don’t let this post actually post until I edit it after the statements I made in my last post!
Sandy,
Maybe you are telling the truth and maybe you are not. I am in no position to judge whether you are or not. But I will request, one more time, for you to specifically identify yourself. Also, I would like to comment on your statement: “Because I know for a fact that Rose did not commit adultery and she did not run off with another man.†Unless you are Rose, you cannot know this for a fact.
I am just trying to give your statements as much weight as everyone else here but you are going to have to give me a reason to believe you on this.
Anotheranonymous,
I admit that I have very little knowledge concerning Nevada law; however, maybe you do so I will ask you the following. If Rose wanted to continue fighting for her marriage, would she be able to contest the divorce? I am assuming that is why they call it an uncontested divorce. And concerning this statement “it is less of a stigma to get an annulment than a third divorce†– this confuses me too. Why fight the annulment and agree to the divorce? I appreciate your insight on this because you probably have a better understanding about this than I do. Sorry I am a bit slow with understanding this.
Mark,
You still didn’t answer my question. Let me state it very specifically. Are you Mark Chironna? (And as a side note, meant in jest and in love – How do you get a doctorate and then write extremely long run on paragraphs?) Please don’t do that any more. OK? (Yes, your Italian was difficult to read!) :0)
Also, please send me a plane ticket and I’ll be happy to attend a gospel meeting in Sicily. (Have passport and will travel!) But I’ll have to warn you, I don’t know what to think about many of the TBN people. No offense meant, just telling ya the truth. I am, however, covered by Christ’s blood. And concerning your statement “we never really know when we might be traveling to the other side,†please tell me that isn’t some kind of mafia threat. :0) (Hey I can have fun too!)
Mark you stated, “it gets a little boring, don’t you think?†– you’ll have to forgive my carnal side (because I am not perfect); however, I don’t think this blog has een “boring†lately. It does seem to be full of a lot of hate though.
You said, “I pray that some of you in here who are so emotionally involved with this
post will take sometime out and take a nice vacation to visit family or friends.†Again, please send me a ticket. Seriously Mark, some of us are in here for reasons that we never really could have understood from the start. God brought us here and we are attempting to do what God would have us to do without getting snared from either camp. (Not everyone found their way here because they made an idol of this man, etc. – in fact some in here might even run the other way if they saw the man coming their way. Gee, he is just a man!)
Patti,
I appreciate the spirit of your post; however, I am still holding out before I make my mind up completely.
Carol Anne,
You mentioned that everyone went insane. Yep, thus my statement “Wowâ€! And as you pray for us all, please don’t forget to mention me because I am trying hard to write the appropriate things here.
Anonymous,
Many of us know to address Bob as Bob so I don’t think that proves that this person is Carman. For a while I thought Anon 4 was Vada but I could be wrong. Then I thought Anon 2 was Carman’s mom and even played with the thought that Dawn’s name had something to do with Tony Orlando (get it)? :0) A mind is a terrible thing to waste!
Raye,
This isn’t from the bible. It is from a song I know . . . “only the curious have something to find.” Just quoting it for you. Don’t read too much into it folks . . . just a thought that popped into my head while reading Raye’s post.
Anon 4, I don’t think people on here display the traits of a narcissists at all. It just sounds like you are trying too hard to come back with something clever to say. But it doesn’t fit and it doesn’t work. Someone accused Anonomous 4 of being Carman. Anon 4 denied it. Maybe he’s not, but I have to say that the way Anon 4 expresses herself or himself does sound alot like Carman. I would not have thought Carman would do such a thing as to pretend to be someone else and deny it, yet I would not have thought he would be so deceitful to his partners either. Yet I saw it for myself as a partner. I have read ALL of his chat transcripts, questions of the day, newsletters and they go back a long way. You get a pretty good feel for the man.
The fact is that Rose did nothing to deceive me, Carman did by acting as though he was not married when he obviously was. By doing this, he made light of a very serious commitment. It made him seem cavalier, insensitive, and selfish. The right thing to do was to be open and honest; it was not necessary to tell any gory details. The next best thing would have been just to say nothing, and just avoid questions relating to marriage. He could have easily just avoided the questions that would lead to misrepresenting the truth. Yet he chose to answer in a way that was deceptive. It is his choice what he will and won’t answer. Carman lost a lot of respect because of saying things that were intended to make things appear that he was still single and nothing had changed. Even IF Rose had done something terrible that made her deserve this, it wasn’t right to try to lead people to believe he was still footloose and fancy-free. Like I said I read all of his stuff and some of those things he said were new and not just reruns of things he had said before. But even if they were reruns, he is responsible for what is on his website. It showed a lack of respect not only for his partners, and for Rose, but for the institution of marriage itself. How can you treat marriage so cheaply as to act like it never happened right after it happened? Even if it is a mistake, you show respect. What Sandy says does ring true, though it doesn’t explain everything. I do not judge Carman, but he needs to come clean. Whether he is narcissitic or not , I would not judge him for it because of his family background. When you are around overbearing people, you do what you have to do to keep a sense of self. I see him as a man who is torn between wanting intimacy and fleeing from it when he gets it. This is very common among men. Especially men who are used to getting a lot of attention from women or too much attention from women. Though he hasn’t used these exact words, he has made it obvious that his mother is very overbearing, high maintenance, emotionally demanding and her behavior embarrasses him. When parents are emotionally demanding and needy towards their children everything is backwards and upside down. The parent is supposed to be taking care of the child, not the other way around. When it is reversed, it has been called emotional incest. It could cause shame and an extreme defense of one’s boundaries. Whenver anyone gets close, those defenses fly up automatically. Such a person would find intimacy suffocating. It would not be a long stretch to see how Carman could unconsciously project his mother’s image onto any woman he got close to, and want to run away. Sometimes people’s minds get into patterns of reacting that is difficult to break, it is possible that the reaction has everything to do with the past and nothing to do with the current situation, or a person may subconsciously pick someone to repaly a negative pattern. Only the Holy Spirit can change these deeply entrenched things, but the Holy Spirit cannot do it’s work if we run away from truth. We can’t know for 100% sure what the problem is, but there is a problem when a Christian leader deceives. However, he has been very open up until now ands so it is not hard to put things together. It seems he needs to look on the inside of himself and deal with this tendency to run away. It could be he is just replaying his relationship with his mother over and over. We all tend to get caught in the junk our parents did. The problem is when a person won’t face that the problem is now on the inside of them, and is not all someone elses fault. His attempt to do that is backfiring. He’s got to trust that he and his ministry can handle the truth. He’s got to trust that God will get him through it if he just faces himself. It may take some time, discomfort, and money, and when you are in a hurry to be a successful star, you don’t want to go through that. That is understandable. But there is no way to avoid oneself forever. It’s hard to face imperfections if you’re too worried about your image. But if you don’t slow down and face the truth, protecting your image can become idolatry. Carman needs to quit running, and be honest, so that God can cleanse and renew him. Otherwise things will continue to go downhill. I hope Carman has learned the lesson that your partners are not idiots easily fooled. Its hard to live in the public eye, but it forces a person to deal with things he could otherwise ignore, and the Word says that teachers have a heavier judgement. This is spoken in love. I hope and pray for the best for you, Carman.
Okay, I’m not saying Sandy is lying but none of us really know her and she gave us no way to check and verify what she said. I’m picking her out as an example, not to pick on her. LOTS of people, on both sides, have posted what they’ve heard and with the same conviction and the same amount of proof.
How can you take anything that anyone says on here as the absolute truth just because they say it is? If you can’t check and verify then you can’t know that it is in fact the truth.
And why are the things that make Carman look bad the truth, but the things that make him look good all lies? That is stinkin’ thinkin’ and will get you no where.
Remember the snake told Eve that God just didn’t want to share all His knowledge with her and Adam. He lied, but she believed him. I’m not saying there are snakes here, but we don’t know if there are or not if we cannot independently verify what they say.
Yes God does know the truth and we do not, therefore we should not be gossiping, grumbling, judging, and publicly discussing other people’s lives. We should be praying! (I know those scriptures have been posted on the first blog. Look in my post #199 on here under my rebuttal to TXrose for the numbers.)
I’d just like to thank you all for proving me right post after post after post. Because I’ll let you in on something. The more you most, the more your true personality comes out. And the more we all see what’s in your own heart. That’s just as true for me and it is for everyone of you.
And for those who were wondering, Matthew 10:22 is the scripture I referenced at the end of my last post (#199).
And without this blog I wouldn’t know these people or how much they need prayer. There are some here who are really hurting. I feel for you and in all sincerity I do pray for your healing. If you can’t seem to be healed on your own please seek professional help. You will feel so much better after forgive and let go of the hurts.
And if you haven’t already you need to go out and buy “The Passion of the Christ, Songs: Original Songs Inspired by the Film.†There are lots of great songs on there, but there are two that I think we can all use. One is Scott Stapp’s “Relearn Love†and the other is P.O.D.’s “Truly Amazing.†They are number 2 and 3 on the CD.
May Jesus lead us and guide us in all that we do. May His love and forgiveness be poured out upon us. Thank You Jesus! AMEN!
GO READ THE QUESTION OF THE DAY.
Sometimes I think people get their brains from Kmart
Sandy:
Would you happen to know for a fact how long these individuals dated before they married?
Because if it were a spur of the moment deal, he could have possibly moved in haste because he was desperate to marry because of his age. Even though they’ve known one another for quite some time, that does not mean that they dated all of these years.
Further, there is someone that I have heard of, sometime back, that Prophesied the events that you see unfolding today. he was furious that this Beautiful Gifted Woman of God would stand up to him, like none other ever has; and much was veiled concerning her, as I have heard his ministry were quite jealous and threatend by her Giftings and Beauty. It could be, that his heart were stolen by someone else a long, long, time ago; and he’s been fighting it all of this time; the one person that stood up to him and told him the truth in love; and possibly he’s just now began to see the light as it pertain to the words that she spoke.
If what she wrote comes full swing to pass, God will redeem him, and there will be quite a story to tell and a powerful testimony; that’s all I can remember or know, as it happened many years ago
OK, how do I say this in love? I have come to a conclusion about this whole situation. While this blog was helpful, I didn’t have to look much further from what I have seen and witnessed with my own eyes to figure this one out. My prayers are with all.
To # 201 MARK
I am not dropping any hints…That is one of my spiritual names given to me by many who know me. As we are called to be conformed into the IMAGE of Christ, desert rose is one of His names. It is a flower that blossoms in the dry rocky arid places.
That is my life. I walk the walk because of the One who called me to walk the walk.
One of my other names is “LAST2GO”….I am also a “Joseph”…My HEavenly Father has allowed to to go through Hell and back for people like you and Carman.
It’s called preparing a Place.
Here are some other names and attributes, My Father and those who have journeyed with me have given me: texas Tornado, Spitfire, Bold Lioness, mama, as a matter of fact my real first name imeans Bold Lion and my real middle name is truthful one.
I have no personal interest in carman nor any human male. The Lord is my Husband.
I am not here because *I* want to be. Right now, I am standing in the gap for the security of my city Houston, therefore the TEXAS part. I do not like wasting my time, and the Lord knows that.
I want to thank you MARK for giving me this opportunity. And also speaking of ROSE,
Just want to say the MOST beautiful “rose’ ever is ROSE OF SHARON= JESUS.
I also know that there are over 1200 verses declaring the SOVEREIGNTY of the Lord, so what is going down here is HIS WILL. It is part of a birthing process.
You may think I am here to hurt Carman, but it is very far from the truth.
I am here until the Lord accomplishes what HE WANTS.
SEE the name: LAST2GO…believe it!!!
Blessed be the name of my Rock that makes my hands to war…
The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds.
Sign me “redeemed”
Speaking of names( Re: Txrose to Mark).. In obedience
BEAUTIFUL SONG OF THE LORD/songbird.
Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, [and] from the noisome pestilence
Psa 124:7 Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.
Jer 29:10-Jer 29:14
05/03/2000 Rom 12:19
The Light makes manifest the hidden works of darkness and reproves them.
His Hand is like a mighty dragnet going forth. For the innocent is way of escape.
To carol anne, 199…
I haven’t gossipped about carman…looking..posts point to Jesus, His Truth His ways.
I am here to obey My Father and say what HE wants even if you lack understanding.
Is there something pricking your heart?? PTL!!!!
The Lord is working on many levels here; people run from pain and discomfort, but the Lord works in it:)
To anonymous #206
You said: Maybe all of this is God’s plan to bring him down, humble him, and finally use him as a REAL MAN OF GOD; and not just some sex image OR a pagan image and idol.
Bless you!
I am sorely perplexed and how we are not taught the true word of the Lord in our churches. So when trouble comes, they do not understand How the Lord is in it to do His perfect will, not to destroy us but to save us!!!
The following scriptures have great power in them for us:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Wow! I have been called to KNOW Him. How does that happen? By going through what He did. NOTE there is a POWER to be had in the midst or as a result of:)
Here:
Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Jhn 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour
It isn’t just the OLD man that goes on the Cross, it is the New Man as well.
I understand perfectly well what the Lord wants to do. I have been there myself.
A lot of people don’t want us to go through this, just as Peter tried to stop Jesus from being arrested. Jesus did what he had to. His ministry on earth was awesome, but the resurected Jesus, is all powerful adn eternal.
So when we die to the old ministry self and ways, what comes out on the otherside, is more deep, powerful eternal that what anyone could imagine.
When suffering comes, our flesh kicks and screams at the Lord.
So do the people around us. They like the Old us. They wouldn’t want to suffer and if you do , it means they may have to.
But the Lord is the AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH.
I am not out to hurt Carman or anyone who is called by His name.
I just want them to recieve the FULLNESS of the call..the prize.
Sure there is a great battle going on in this area…..Satan is afraid….very afraid.
he knows full well that after all is said and done …..what the Lord has for carman and all of the Lords children, is a thousand times more powerful.
God bless you for having the eyes to see this!
TO anonymous 4:
YOU said:
“To TXrose (#186)
Can you give the man a chance? It’s not even over yet and you are calling for him to explain himself. He may not be able to do that yet.”
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Dear Sir, I dont care about Carmans marriage-period. If he is my brother, I would like for him to come and “reason together with us.”
Am I here to rebuke Carman…Hmm..about His marriage NOOOO….There are many verses on judging…..The Lord has better for all of this….we are in the darkest time of humanity..the lines are drawn….it is time to break the chains and cut the cords…if you are the Lords..then its ALL the WAY. Persecution is coming to sort out the wheat and tares…are you ready? I am. prepare the way!
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A4 said:
And identifying “facts†as gossip is also not SPIRITUAL ABUSE. In fact it is shinning a light on the supposed “facts†to “try, test, and prove all things.†When someone makes a statement and it cannot be tried, tested and proved then it IS gossip and cannot be taken as fact. (No matter how true it may actually be.)
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Have I repeated anything about his marriage etc???? Go back and look!!!!!
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A4 said:
And the Bible is very clear that we are not to gossip or grumble or judge. You need to go to the first blog and read the following posts: #407, 472, 480, & 542.
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That is your limited understanding of the Word : very immature and powerless.
===================================================
A4 said:
I (and I’m sure others here) are NOT trying to take away anyone’s “ability to reason and question and prove all things according to the word.â€
———-
When you tell someone to shut and be quiet, that is abuse. The devil and the prideful and darkness don’t want people talking. As a matter of fact when someone is in bondage they don’t know it. if things remain hidden, there is a stronghold. It is my heart and my heavenly fathers to make men free. And I would die to do so.
It seems to me, that there are an awful lot of selfish people around carman. They aren’t protecting Him..they are keeping Him from his rightful inheritance in Jesus..hence we see the warefare!! Satan is trembling!! Thank you Jesus…the precious blood shed and covering every word and every person here,,,, HIS word does not return void but will accomplish His purpose!
======================================================
A4 said:
A lot of what we have seen here are people who have been hurt or know someone who has
——
Amen!!! And where is the Healing Balm of Gilead??? Are YOU offering it to them ….
They have been wounded and decieved, and now you want them to shut up and condemn them?
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A4 said:
And you don’t have to do this “testing†in a public forum. In fact you it should be between you and the Lord first.
Dear Sir, I don’t believe that I am testing anything. I keep pointing to the Lord and what he wants…I am laughing at the fact that the accusations are coming my way!!!
Thank you:)
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Thank you for this opportunity Anon4. Bless you:)
Another one bites the dust. This is just a sad, sad reminder that we should keep our eyes on the Creator and not on His creation.
I have known Rose Licciardello since her teenage years. Oves the years she has confided in me and I am familiar with her and her family. If anyone is insuiating that Rose has a mental problem, like bi polar or has a split personality, that is a total and complete lie. And someone is trying to malign her and you ought to be ashamed. She has never taken any medication for any mental disorder and she has never seen or visited a psychiatrist or psychologist in all the years that I have known her and that is since she was a teenager. She had marriage counseling and nothing else. So, please stop lying to make yourself look better and give yourself a reason that is still not
biblical a divorce. Hosea married and prostitute and even in God’s eyes that was not reason for a divorce. So quit justifying sin and covenant breaking which is sin.
T –
Regarding your questions in post 212…
No, Rose has no choice in this divorce. You are correct, T, that it’s exactly why it’s called an uncontested divorce. She is no longer given the choice to legally fight for her marriage to stay intact. (That is the why some people go to “sin city” to get them… )
Regarding your question about “Why fight the annulment and agree to the divorce?” (since there is more stigma with a divorce than getting a clean slate thru an annulment)… the answer again is that she no longer has a choice because carman changed his venue to an uncontested divorce which Rose now has no choice but to accept.
So sad.
To the Admin (to be shared by all),
You Goober! Or does your board have a formatting demon!
LOL at T’s comments about run-on paragraphs. I have to agree… I barely scan those as they are way too tedious.
Actually, the reason I really wrote this time is an experiment to try and see if posting under a different name in a short period of time would render me a “red” tag on my name (since the admin didn’t answer my earlier question about that)….
Still Curious
T.,
I understand your need for closure and a conclusion with this. I feel that way too, and for some reason that I cannot describe, Sandy’s statement rang as Truth for me. I don’t know why, but I do know that I believe her. For the first time since this whole thing began, I feel closure. Something “checked” in my spirit.
I pray that God restore Carman, just as he did King David. For his own sake, I pray that Carman comes to complete repentance and truly knows the freedom of walking in the will and footsteps of Christ. I pray that he comes to know the fullness of joy in his life.
I think it’s very sad that so many people have been affected by this in so many different ways. I believe that is why most people come to this blog – so that they can find the truth about this man and his ministry – and come to some kind of conclusion with it.
May God bless you all on your journey and may His peace be upon you.
To Rose’s former Pastor: So if you are Rose’s former Pastor, why didn’t you give your full name so your story can be verified? I’m not saying you are lying, but you are making me wonder what the secret is since you said you’ve known her so long. She was probably careful to put her best foot forward around you, as so many do.
Are you married to someone like Hosea married? If not, why expect someone else to do what you have not? Just a guess. A Pastor does not know everything about people who are in their church. And her former husbands would know alot more. There are many things my pastors have not known about our family, which we keep to ourselves when we can deal with the problems on our own. I do not know Carman or Rose or Mario personally, but have seen them and many others on TBN.
Please also keep in mind there is more than one “anonymous” on this forum. There are times when it feels more objective to sign it that way. And Carol Anne, thanks so much for all your prayers, much needed!
#223 Dear Pastor, Thank you for speaking up. Rose is in our prayers.
To alias Sandy, who could be someone’s alter ego, or just someone else:
Your #178 quote: “Because I know for a fact that Rose did not commit adultery and she did not run off with another man.”
Response: “So tell me, where is the proof that she was not in adultery? Do we know for a fact that when she left Mario it was for Biblical reasons? Mario was very quiet about this from what I can tell, but in his newsletters he insinuated betrayal, heartbreak, forgiveness, and letting God take care of his reputation. Where’s the proof that she didn’t lie about this, and that people just took her word for it without investigating it thoroughly?
Your #178 quote: “Why would Rose fight the annullment if she had abandoned him? Why would she fight to the inth degree? If she had another man, why wouldn’t she want out of the marriage?
Response: There can be more than one reason for fighting an annulment, one of which could be to save the marriage, another could be to keep stalling until a divorce is agreed upon instead, which could give a settlement different from an annulment. There was a stall on the dates until the divorce was mentioned, then the agreement went through faster.
Your #178 quote: “Carman left Rose and the apartment they were living in and took most everything of value and didn’t even leave a note. ”
Response: So where was Rose during the time he took everything of value and didn’t leave a note?
Your #178 quote: “She packed up his stuff as he requested and put it in boxes and left the apartment before the time (day) that she was told to be out.”
Response: Why would she have to pack his things, when he already left and took everything of value?
Your #178 quote: “He couldn’t reach her by phone or e mail for several days, so he says that she left him. But the truth is. She went out one afternoon to run some errands and when she came home to their apartment in Santa Monica, Carman was gone.”
Response: Sounds pretty fishy to me. First you say he couldn’t reach her for several days, then you say she was only out running errands for the afternoon? I don’t think he would leave someone for spending time running errands.
Your #178 quote: ” She called a friend panicked worried sick about where he was and couldn’t understand why he had packed all of the things of value and didn’t even leave her a note.
Response: So if he packed all things of value, and she was only gone to run errands, boy was he a speedy packer! Or was she really the one who was gone for days instead of him?
Your #178 quote: “It’s amazing how the truth of this situation has been twisted and twisted, But Carman knows what really happened and furthermore, So does God.”
Response: You’re not kidding God really knows, and I suspect something different from what you are telling.
Your #178 quote: There was no sin here except the sin of selfishness, self love and idolizing and loving your own self and your own ministry more than the wife that you had just committed your life to in a covenant with God.
Response: Could there be a reversal of guilt here, even just a little on her part? Could be.
Your #178 quote: He put his ministry and himself above the laws and love of God. Thats the truth and the whole truth so help me God.
Response: So how do you know that for a fact? And I’m not totally sure you are speaking of the God of the Bible.
I just re-read “T’s” post requesting that Sandy identify herself. Well, Mr. T (or is it T-Bone)…you first. It takes a little nerve to ask someone to do what you are unwilling to do, don’t you think?
and…
“Different Anon” doesn’t know just how insightful he or she is. Obviously you have studied psychology.
anonymous4 actually posted a link to a webpage on my site
Wow TxRose!
This comment was powerful: “It isn’t just the OLD man that goes on the Cross, it is the New Man as well.” That my friend I agree with you 100%. And concerning: “The Lord is working on many levels here.” Amen . . . folks, this is not just about Carman, I know the Lord is using this opportunity to help me grow as a Christian. Tex, I don’t agree with you 100% on everything (in fact I DISAGREE with you on some things) but it is very unlikely that I will agree with anyone 100%. And once again, Amen, for the statement “for the innocent is way of escape.” God always has an escape route, even when we are tempted and not so innocent.
You said that you were here because you were obeying your Father, I can relate to that so very much. Whether God has us here to help do His will or to help us grow as a Christian, He has a purpose in all of this. “So when trouble comes, they do not understand How the Lord is in it to do His perfect will, not to destroy us but to save us!!!” Amen, Amen, I do not mean to mock you Tex, but you have really hit a cord with me in the above statements.
I find it interesting that you pointed to the meanings of your names. Isn’t that interesting? I think it is very important to understand the names we give our children. My first name is means priceless (but should probably be playful or stubborn [Admin, I still think you messed with my last posts, ha, ha.]) – but I am priceless because Jesus’ gift for my life and my eternity was priceless. He was willing to do do such a priceless thing for you and for me!) My middle name means “Who is like God” – which I have never really understood accept that it is giving honor and glory to God, whom no other is like. Your names are much more powerful!
Carol Anne,
Perhaps I’ll take your suggestion on bying the Passion of Christ CD and even review the movie once again. I got so hung up on what seemed out of place in the first part of the movie the first time I watched it ruined the rest of the movie for me. (Ya know the thing with the snake . . . too much artistic license being used for me . . . I gotta stop getting stuck on things like that!) Thanks for your prayers! As you can see from my response to Texas, I am probably somewhere in the middle of all of this regarding my opinions; however, I just want to let you know that I think you are a special child of God and I pray God’s blessings on your life.
Ah, Millie, check, check check! Although, I agree that we all need to be held accountable.
To the anonymous Goober that posted: “she had 2 men within 3 years, yet some people refuse to admit that she could be the bigger contributor to that instead of the other two.” Check, check, check!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember the woman at the well?
To a Different Anon,
We have to be careful when we speak in love (including myself) – I’m not going to judge your intentions but please reread your post as if you were Carman and see if you think he would accept it in love. I have to do this too and also fail at this. I wish people would leave the man’s mother out of this because most people grow up and successfully get over these issues. I disagree with your statement regarding men, intimacy, and fleeing from it. I think some individuals may have this issue but I don’t think it is a gender thing.
To Admin,
Please leave my posts alone! :)
T
To Roses Pastor:
Thank you Sir for sharing this. I know God can heal all things and wish that for all.
I have a great deal of respect for you however if the names mentioned here are real of these other evangelists, there is no respect there.
A sister+++
Respectfully Admin Bob I am curious too why is mine red (lol).
I didn’t accidently put some kind of link I shouldn’t have did I ?
My apologies to all I am not an English major.
It has been a few years since I got out of school and had to write out proper grammer and sentence structure .
I have cut up my sentences and made them simple as I can to please.
I hope it doesn’t sound too cold.
Mark …..If that is Mark Chirrona I want to say that I declared your prophecies on TBN, praise the Lord true in my life and the lives of others believing the he who welcomes a prophet .
I stood on Mark Chironnas word of Prophecy several times and declared it to be true.
I also sent in my TBN love gifts and I paid my tithes.
In short they failed in my life.
That is the way we are to judge a prophet is by his words coming to pass.
I still stand on GOD”S Word.
My faith is far from perfect but the blood of Jesus is my Justification. .
I would like to hear your answer on that subject if none else here minds?
It must be fault in me of course but I would like to know an answer from you on that subject if that is you.
Thanks so much Raye
Welcome to all. I pray all is well with you and that God blesses each and
everyone of you.
Welcome T! Hello T are we having a good day? I am not Mark Chironna.
The only corona I know is a bottle of Mexican beer with a worm in it. To get a
doctorate is to take the worm out of the bottle and disect it or do surgery on it!
I enjoy challenging, profound, stimulating thought provoking questions and
chasing it down to the end of the page. Okay, okay, I’m just going to do this
for you and no buddy else because we are friends? One skip, two skip.
Should there be a Gospel meeting planned for Sicily or perhaps Barcelona I
would be happy to send you a ticket. You know I was only having fun with
my Italian, my friend. I was trying to make a great point to how we all must
respect the blood of Jesus Christ. Please go check out the movie, THE
PASSION OF CHRIST. This may help many of you and that includes you Bob.
Regarding TBN they are all different people with one common bond there
love of Jesus Christ and spreading the GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL.
Many people think they ask for excessive donations, however; it takes
a lot of money and work to spread the Gospel through out this world.
TBN IS A BLESSING FROM GOD IN HEAVEN. This is the plan of God.
We are to preach the Gospel into all the world. I would pray that all
of you are taking your time to help those that are in need of a Savior.
HOW MANY SOULS ARE YOU BRINGING TO CHRIST JESUS?
Welcome Tx. Rose hello and how are you? I have this feeling
now that you are trying to do the right thing but are you really
washed in the blood? Do you have mercy in your heart towards others
or are you just interested in saying what you believe is so right in the
eyes of God? If you want a ministry I would be happy to ask God to
show you your mission in this life. I would love to agree with you only
if you take me serious. If not then have it your way but I say to you in
love that God’s way is so much sweeter. You don’t have to write me back.
All you need to say in your heart is, yes Lord. Then we will be in agree-
ment that God is going to continue to do great things in your life. I do
already believe you have a relationship with our Lord. I do see this but
you lack mercy, and love. I mean unconditional love. I must also say
you are a conversationalist which is a God given talent.
If you people in here really understood the love of God you would stop insulting
those when Christ Jesus has paid such a high price. God already knew what
mistakes we were going to make before we even arrived into this world. You
don’t think God didn’t already know about this before it took place? And after
our Lord suffered to bring us a better life in him? You all think God needs
your help to correct others? You can quote many scriptures all you like
but without love you are nothing.
Lord Jesus bless this blog and turn it all around for your glory. Let those that
really don’t know you see all the good your about to do in each and everyone
of them. Lord use each one that has participated in this totem to temple place.
This will enable millions to look back and see the glory of God come down upon
us in a most incredible way. Lord pour out your precious Holy Spirit like never
before and get us all ready for your soon return amen.
To Carol Anne I am not trying to boast.
This is the only paragraph for you that you need to read :
I apologise if my mentioning that I was fasting offended you it just came out natural with prayer.
On the prophecy lists that I belong to, we have been asked to pray and fast for the election and for the vice Presidents heart .
The two go together for me.
I have voted by the way for those enquiring minds who want to know .
If I chose to boast here and had the time to try to look spiritual it would be quite different than I have written.
To T -I don’t have a clue what your little song remark is about.
I don’t care what you meant either because the truth is I don’t care to impress you.
I mean no offense but I see a lot of hypocrisy here from some of the real spiritual ones in their own eyes here.
I am sorry you don’t get it.
I did try the best I could to show you the hypocrisy. I did not intend to just tell people to shut up as some have written if that is what they thought.
I just don’t get the hypocricy of it.
You cannot be here and be sinless by your standards because you didn’t gossip and just told us all off .
God does know me and he knows my heart .
He also knows why this Carman thing really bothers me.
God knows what drives me to try to figure out who Carman really is.
I believe it is trying to be fair and find out how to put the puzzle together with the broken pieces that just Don’t fit.
It seems that he is not what he and his group have been telling us they are.
I remember when I heard Dwight Thompson it felt powerful.
Like he was giving Carman,TBN, and maybe the church a prophecy.
That is why I brought that up.
I can’t remember exactly what was said.
I hope that someone else does.
I hope someone can tell me what was said. Maybe it was just a powerful rebuke.
Thanks Raye
Respectfully Admin:
I am sorry this may be more work for you I sent this in 3 seperate pieces to make it easier to read for others who hate long posts .
I have to write when I get the chance and then check back when I can.
I don’t intend to write again but I have not intended to write again since my first post.
hopefully this will be my last post
thanks you lots Raye
I have a Question To Roses former Pastor
I Don’t have a problem with you, Rose or even Carman on the marriage subject. That is personal business and between God, Rose and others who have been dragged in for various reasons .
I don’t think that I believe the same as lots of people here anyway.
Maybe the only way for Rose to tell her story is to tell it like this.
She is not a celebrity with the same opportunity’s to compete with Carman.
Many will not even search for the truth they will believe whatever Carman says and stand up for him to the death .
It seems to me he has been spinning it her fault.
That is wrong if he does that just because he is a celebrity and can.
I have been so dissapointed in church men like that these last few years.They just pin it on the wife and go on with their career nobody cares and they think God is blind too.
Respectfully to Roses former Pastor : I am asking humbly not in a debating or in a contentious manner respectfully.
I am confused Could you please explain how you are using your reference to Hosea.?
Are you using it as a Prophectic pattern, as a Justification that it was not right for Carman to marry and leave Rose for any reason? Or something else?
I am confused at what you are trying to say.
To my understanding The Book of Hosea is a book of prophecy and God was making a little drama of how he felt about Isreal’s idoltry. He was using Hosea’s life to show what he was going to do to the Northern Kingdom. He was playing out how he felt about them.
God did divorce the northern tribes after much mercy in his little story in Hosea and Ezekial .
He did stay married to Judah and punished her. _____________________________________________
God had two Wives as seen in (Ezek 23:4 KJV) This is the same story as Hosea’s telling of the Northern Kingdom story.
Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
<><><>>><><><><><><>>>
Gomer being – (Isreal or Samaria) —other wife in Ezekial (Judah or Jerusalem )
_________________________________ _____________________
In Hosea
God talks to Samaria or the Northern Kingdom through Hosea. God tells the Northern tribes what he is going to do.
Gomer plays the part of the Northern tribes.
Hosea plays the part of God and how he has been so forgiving of the northern tribes.
1st Child Jezreel means they will be scattered
2nd child Lo means not . Rohamah –loved – Not loved
3rd child Lo –not Ammi- my people
But finally He divorces the Northern Kingdom.
There will be No sign of the God of Abraham with them as they are Scattered -They are not loved – Not Gods People
Point #1 Hosea’s marriage to Gomer and her offspring shows all that God has done and is going to do to the Northern tribes.
Hosea tells of the pain he has bourn to try to be the perfect husband but Gomer can’t or won’t measure up.
Point #2 She continually turns back to her evil ways so God finally sends her away-divorces her.
They are later taken into captivity in fullfillment of the prophecy
Point #3 Judah the other wife God says is worse even though she saw what he did to the Northern Tribes she does not learn but God will not divorce Judah he will punish and correct her and her offspring.
Hosea 1- book and Ezek 23:4 – book
Last Point. The last thing that God would do is Return to Isreal and they would be sons of God right where he had scattered them.
Since he could not go back to this wife according to his own law of divorce he must be another man to marry her after he dies.
Jesus takes the old husband – The law the old covenant to the grave.
Jesus comes back as the new husband.
In the new covenant that Christ bought with his blood he can now marry her legally to make them sons of God where they were scattered.
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Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. 11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel
<><><><><><><><><><>>< PATTERN: Gods pattern that God set down was that he could not remarry his divorced wife and she could not marry another until her husband died.
When the Law covenant – the old husband died she could marry the new husband covenant- grace by faith
Matthew 5: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Jesus died and took the (old covenant the law –marriage) to the grave with him.
Now Jesus could rise and remarry The Northern Kingdom in the new covenant in Christ.
That is my understanding so I am confused at what you are saying ?
thanks ahead for your reply Raye
To anonymous.
You have everything in wrong order and you are trying to twist my words.
I did tell the truth and God knows I told the truth and I will stand before heaven and tell the same story and not be afraid for one minute. God is on the side of truth.
If you are Carman or one of his groupies, then… well i’m not going to waste my time trying to explain every little thing that I said, You know its the truth, so help me God.
I have nothing to hide. I have told the truth. You have twisted and twisted what I said, got things out of order, etc. But everything here is correct and truthful. NO I don’t expect carman groupies to believe me and yet and still, Carman knows that he left while she went out to run errands she had gone to get her nails done and get some dinner for them. When She returned, he was gone with most of the things of value. except for a few clothes and a printer which he later told her that she could keep. She was panicked and couldn’t reach him for several hours, upon calling him on his cell phone, he told her he was not coming back.
Then later his secretary called Rose and told her to be out of the apartment by a certain date and to pack up what he had left that was of little value and someone would get the boxes that she packed up. His sister in law Sandy flew to los angeles and picked up the box or boxes that were left in the apartment don’t know if she took the stuff or threw it away. But she did go there to close the place down. He is telling people that Rose Licciardello left him, when he left her. She did not let him know her whereabouts for several days and that is why he is saying that she abadoned him. But Carman, you know the truth. You left her . Not the other way.
Go ahead and continue to twist and lie, but God and Rose and Carman know the truth. So anonymous, (probably Carman) You know the truth. You are getting your divorce. Leave this woman alone and quit lying about her to make yourself look good. In the name of Jesus. You m ay be able to fool most of the people, but you cannot fool God. You are not that smart and He knows all, even the things that are done in secret.
107 Theses(54-62) STEVE CAMP
PART FOUR
The Character of the Christian Musician- Personal Integrity and Holiness
54. The Biblical model of the musician originated from the Levitical priesthood, as musicians were appointed by the Levites under King David’s command, to proceed in worship, with the priests, before the ark of God. It’s nature was prophetic to Israel and ecclesiastical in role, i.e., used in temple worship. (1Chronicles 15; 16; 23:5; 25:5-6)
55. They were able to teach and were skillful in craft. “The chief of the Levites was Chenaniah, the master musician, who gave instruction to the singers because he was skillful”. (1 Chronicles 15:22)
56. They served in the context of temple worship. “Of the thirty-eight thousand Levites who ministered in the Temple, four thousand were appointed to lead in worship, thanksgiving, and praise of the Lord.” The model is clear. Pastoral charge over the arts is essential. (1 Chronicles 23:5)
57. Those calling themselves Christians are characterized by new life in Jesus Christ-old things pass away, all things become new.(2 Corinthians 5:17)
58. The Christian singer has a triumvirate charge of service to the Lord Jesus: Sound doctrine, Christ-centered worship and holy living. These three pillars elucidate the foundation of true Christian music and ministry and godly character. (Psalm 119:54, 172)
59. Take away any one of theses pillars and the structure topples. For example, an obedient life given in worship to Christ absent of sound doctrine will be empty praise and on the path to error. (Colossians 3:16)
60. Secondly, the sound theology sung out of the beauty of holiness but lacking in heartfelt worship to Christ leads to pride or self-glory and the chastisement of the Father. (Hebrews 12:5-11)
61. Lastly, a powerful doctrine sung in glory to Christ with an impure life is noise to the ears of our holy God. Submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the obedience to the Word of God are marks of the worthy walk of faith. However, when Biblical standard are dishonored and unrepentant sin persists we must adhere to the instruction of the Word-stop the music until life is right. (Amos 5:23-24)
62. Godly character exhibited in response to sound doctrine is paramount in serving the Lord. To live privately what we proclaim publicly is the manifestation of genuine faith. That is why from the stockroom to the stage Christ-likeness should evidence our behavior. God has not called us to be successful but faithful. (2 Corinthians 6:3-10)
If someone were really in love with someone and they had waited many years before marrying, then naturally they would shout it from the roof tops and want the whole world to know that they had finally found the love of their life. The fact that this did not happen and no menton of this was brought forth, or announced is foretelling that this was just a move in haste and done out of emotional duress, and desperation during a vulnerable time… i.e. with all of these lawsuits. This is very obvious, and it would be further obvious that he would want someone who could pick up the ball and run with things to help in his ministry as his help mate. Obviously, he did’t find these qualities in what he chose, during a misguided, vulnerable moment of emotional duress.
This move was unthinking, misguided, and again, as stated before by a gifted Anonomous, the man’s heart is somewhere else.
God is merciful and forgiving when a person fully repents. All of this you see unfolding is God’s way of setting this man free, from the darkness of those who have road the Carman machine, and have surrounded this man and given him HORRIBLE counsel for a number of years, especially since 1995 and 1996. God is sweeping ALL of these deceivers around him, out of his life, FOREVER! AND GOD IS SETTING HIM FREE! God works in mysterious ways; and what satan means for our harm and destruction, GOD ALWAYS INTENDS IT FOR OUR GOOD!
WE SHOULD BE REJOICING THAT GOD IS ON THE THRONE AND THAT HE KNOWS THE THOUGHTS THAT HE THINKS TOWARDS CARMAN, TO GIVE HIM A HOPE AND A FUTURE, AND AN EXPECTED END!
GOD ONLY CHASTENS THOSE WHOM HE LOVES! AND IT’S ALWAYS TO PRODUCE THE PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IN OUR LIVES. NO ONE HAS A TESTIMONY WITHOUT A TEST! AND WHEN GOD BRINGS FORTH THE FINISHED WORK, THIS MAN IS GOING TO HAVE AN AWESOME TESTIMONY THAT IS GOING TO BE LIFECHANGING FOR MANY, MANY, OTHERS! and perhaps, the true love of his heart, at his side!
To anonymous #231. HOGWASH!!! Your arguments do not make sence and they are not true. I don’t know if you know Carman personally or not, but if that’s what he told you, then he lied. What Sandy said in post #178 is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Believe it or not. Carman has yet another “notch” on his belt, the divorce will be final today. How very sad.
Millie,
I don’t need to specifically identify myself because I am not making such accusations. And I will agree that if he/she is speaking the truth, that the truth CAN be a defense for slander; however, Sandy is the one who has to make the determination that this is a fight she is willing to fight.
Ya know what? I am also not identifying myself because many of you do not know me and wouldn’t know me if I told you who I am so – T is sufficient; however, I have been pretty transparent to the “few” individuals who may know me.
I am sorry, I just disagree with you. I feel that if someone makes statements indicating that they know about this situation fairly intimately then they need to be willing to back their statements up. I have no hate toward Sandy. I am just trying to give him/her the opportunity to convince me that his/her statements are true.
I’m sorry if this offends you but my question still stands for Sandy and Mark.
God Bless,
Now that this whole thing is over 10-20-04, everyone needs to know some important FAX concerning our Champion.
One thing we’ve learned over all these years is that Carman is an Extra Nice Guy who is also known for his Wisdom on a Wing. He was used to being Champion C.. But in this situation, although there were one hundred and ninety five ways to work out this problem, he contacted Gavin Dbecker to help him with an assessment. But he should have gone back to the little white chapel and prayed. They didn’t assist him much so he contacted Lillian for the Rescue, but even she couldn’t get him an eaZwayout.
So he turned to his alter ego, Investor AAA for help and the Investor was able to get in touch with a man who loved m & MMM’s and in then he really coudn’t assist him either, though they did come to an agreement together to try and solve their thorny issues.
But everyone needs to understand that he has had so many faithful friends stand with him in these last several months, people like me Old High School Chum, Eve and Dark Horse. We were able to minister to him and keep him company in the desert while he held on to his mirage. We were able to nurse his nose bleeds and sooth his restlessness during the night hours. We are so glad that we were able to assist him. Of course we have never called him by his name, but we all know him as ” Old Shak”, and he really knows how to take care of business.
Maybe now that this is all over he will find rest in his retirement in a sun shinny state. We’re sure he’ll get a good workout on the beach and hope he doesn’t faint again from the stresses of life while jogging. We pray that he is watchful in the water because there are a lot of great white sharks there. Whatever…. we know him and we are sure that everything will come up ??